We will be seeing a lot of lot Chris Sale (traded to the Red Sox)

[sportsfan8703]

16 hours ago, MemorialStadKid said:

They usually do. 

 

The one thing about that team is that they identify their needs IMMEDIATELY and go to improve. 

 

Sigh. 

 

MSK 

 

Helps win you can just eat huge deals like Sandoval and Castillo.  They're so creative. 

[Redskins Rick]

4 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Helps win you can just eat huge deals like Sandoval and Castillo.  They're so creative. 

Not to mention, they are still paying Manny, 2 mill per year in dead money.

Of course, considering they have 22 mill tried up in Castillo and Craig for 2017, thats chump change.

[MemorialStadKid]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Helps win you can just eat huge deals like Sandoval and Castillo.  They're so creative. 

Yes, but being passive doesn't help our cause in the least. 

 

I.E. - http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-winter-meetings-1207-20161206-story.html

 

Quote

 

If more teams opt for short-term fixes instead of signing a player to a contract that loses a first-round pick, the Orioles could see the market driven down on a slugger and add to their power-first lineup. The same could be true for the outfielder they hope will replace Trumbo in right field once the market clears up on center fielder Ian Desmond, another qualifying offer free agent.

Or, conversely, the teams with money to spend could find the values of those suppressed prices too difficult to pass up.

Duquette acknowledged the flurry of action on Tuesday, principally by the Red Sox, as a product of the environment at the winter meetings, which are set up to foster signings and trades.

But to move as methodically as the Orioles do, and then see the rest of the market dawdle to your speed, has to be disconcerting to a club that is looking to return to the playoffs.

 

 

[MemorialStadKid]

21 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Here is where it is almost like being on different planets....the Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees...they all operate in a zone that routinely every winter does the biggest deal, the biggest free agent signings, etc.   The Orioles never ever do anything like this and never will.   It doesn't mean we can't win or can't compete, it just means the winter is pretty boring when you root for our team versus the ones I mentioned. 

Pretty much this. 

Actually, all of this.

I've been astounded by the Orioles' behavior since the 2007 off season. I just don't get their behavior in the marketplace. It feels like they are VERY content just getting by instead of making impact moves and/or take the time to develop and scout the right talent. 

I wonder what's going on internally with the scouting and player development. This is a very weird spot to be in year in and year out. It never changes. 

You'd think they'd do a complete overhaul of their infrastructure and set up a team philosophy but it still has not happened. 

I remain enthusiastic, but I hate watching us sit still while other teams get better. 

MSK 

 

[foxfield]

46 minutes ago, MemorialStadKid said:

Pretty much this. 

Actually, all of this.

I've been astounded by the Orioles' behavior since the 2007 off season. I just don't get their behavior in the marketplace. It feels like they are VERY content just getting by instead of making impact moves and/or take the time to develop and scout the right talent. 

I wonder what's going on internally with the scouting and player development. This is a very weird spot to be in year in and year out. It never changes. 

You'd think they'd do a complete overhaul of their infrastructure and set up a team philosophy but it still has not happened. 

I remain enthusiastic, but I hate watching us sit still while other teams get better. 

MSK 

 

I too have been astounded.  It's a tale of two cities as the saying goes...The best of times...the worst of times.  Your post regarding the last 10 years of Oriole baseball is fantastic.  In the way one might generally miss the forest for the trees.  You see, during the first 5 years covered by the post above.  The Orioles were in the process of digging out of a hole that routinely defined them as one of the worst franchises in ALL of sports.  Not just baseball mind you.  All of sports.  

The second 5 years of the period above finds the Orioles to be one of the most successful franchises in sports. With the best record in the AL, 3 playoff appearances, One trip to the ALCS.  Now, the Orioles have yet to close on a trip to the World Series and of course they have not won one either.  But the last 10 years is definitely something that should leave us astounded.  I could not agree with you more on that point.  That you fail to understand their behavior in the market place, or understand what goes on internally with scouting and development is not really all that shocking and likely not that unusual.

You see, our GM is one of the 4 or 5 best in the game and if what he was doing was easy to understand or replicate, well any fool hardy critic with a keyboard and an internet connection could run a club.  Thanks for remaining optimistic though.  I think your optimism is very likely to be rewarded!  Have a great 2017!

 

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I too have been astounded.  It's a tale of two cities as the saying goes...The best of times...the worst of times.  Your post regarding the last 10 years of Oriole baseball is fantastic.  In the way one might generally miss the forest for the trees.  You see, during the first 5 years covered by the post above.  The Orioles were in the process of digging out of a hole that routinely defined them as one of the worst franchises in ALL of sports.  Not just baseball mind you.  All of sports.  

The second 5 years of the period above finds the Orioles to be one of the most successful franchises in sports. With the best record in the AL, 3 playoff appearances, One trip to the ALCS.  Now, the Orioles have yet to close on a trip to the World Series and of course they have not won one either.  But the last 10 years is definitely something to should leave us astounded.  I could not agree with you more on that point.  That you fail to understand their behavior in the market place, or understand what goes on internally with scouting and development is not really all that shocking and likely not that unusual.

You see, our GM is one of the 4 or 5 best in the game and if what he was doing was easy to understand or replicate, well any fool hardy critic with a keyboard and an internet connection could run a club.  Thanks for remaining optimistic though.  I think your optimism is very likely to be rewarded!  Have a great 2017!

 

 

I think I have a fair grasp on what Dan is doing.

I just don't like what it means for someone like me, who cares how the team looks and performs after Dan's contract is over.

[Moondoggie]

5 minutes ago, foxfield said:

 

You see, our GM is one of the 4 or 5 best in the game

 

 

Let's see:

Theo Epstein/Jed Hoyer

Dave Dombrowski

Dayton Moore'

Brian Cashman

Neal Huntington

Jon Daniels

Mike Rizzo

Brian Sabean

Mark Shapiro

John Mozeliak

Andrew Friedman

Which of these are you ranking behind Duquette?

[foxfield]

Ok, fair points all around. 

55 minutes ago, Moondoggie said:

Let's see:

Theo Epstein/Jed Hoyer 

Dave Dombrowski

Dayton Moore'

Brian Cashman

Neal Huntington

Jon Daniels

Mike Rizzo

Brian Sabean

Mark Shapiro

John Mozeliak

Andrew Friedman

Which of these are you ranking behind Duquette?

Well, lets start with the easy part.  My count and I admit I haven't looked real close is that there are 8 WS Championship runs by GMS on this list.  3 by Sabean at SF, 2 by Cashman in NY, and 1 by Mozaliak in St. Louis, Dayton Moore in KC and Theo/Jed Hoyer for the Cubs.  Also, Shapiro and Freidman are not GM's at all, but sit above the GM in Toronto and Los Angeles respectively.  If I missed something I apologize. Edit to add Dombrowski won a WS while GM of Fla Marlins.

In fairness, a rating would have to consider multiple things correct?  I mean, Cashman and Sabean have been in their spots for 20 years!  Moore, Huntington, Daniels and Mozeliak are right at 10 years respectively at their spots.  And of course. Dombrowski, Cashman, Friedman, Shapiro have ties to our AL East competitors.  And Mike Rizzo has run the Wash for 7 years now.  Do we consider ownership here and payroll? 

Look, I didn't mean to be so Cavalier in saying top 4 or 5 in the game.  Sure there is room for debate.  But I'll take his 5 years here and say that his performance ranks in the top 4 or 5 still.  You cite 11 names so clearly at best you think he is middle of the pack and bottom of our division.  You sir, are entitled to your opinion and I wont begrudge that at all.

I will remind you that when we hired DD, it was mostly because NO ONE, who would have been on your list of top 10, much less top 5, would even give the Orioles the time of day to interview.  I choose to factor that in to my "ranking". 

So, with all of that said I will say the following.  I would rate the following behind DD at least over the last 5 years.

Dombrowski, Cashman, Huntington, Rizzo, Mozeliak and Daniels without blinking an eye.  

Theo, Sabean and Dayton Moore I would rate ahead of DD and Dayton Moore just barely.

Again, Friedman and Shapiro are NOT GM's but their work as GM's for Tampa Bay and Cleveland were stellar.

But again, even though I do not think DD is perfect and while I agree with Can of Corn that his departure may not leave us in good shape, his body of work here is pretty impressive.  The record of the team over his tenure speaks for itself.  Regardless of the shiny list you have prepared.  But thanks for the reply and discussion. 

[tntoriole]

While I think that DD has done some good things and have credited him for doing so, I also think he has made some poor choices and that his long term plan is hard to identify as an organization.   If the team goes into another prolonged collapse after 2018, it will be pretty clear that DD will take a good portion of the blame.   Particularly if Manny walks from this organization with nothing but a comp pick.  That, for me, is the red line about DD's tenure.  Either he convinces ownership to do the mega deal , or, if not, then he must trade him in the very near future for absolute maximum value.   

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

While I think that DD has done some good things and have credited him for doing so, I also think he has made some poor choices and that his long term plan is hard to identify as an organization.   If the team goes into another prolonged collapse after 2018, it will be pretty clear that DD will take a good portion of the blame.   Particularly if Manny walks from this organization with nothing but a comp pick.  That, for me, is the red line about DD's tenure.  Either he convinces ownership to do the mega deal , or, if not, then he must trade him in the very near future for absolute maximum value.   

The way the O's are structured now they have a 2 year window, then a hard crash is likely coming.  Red Sox do spend recklessly, but they also have a farm system.  There is always talent the Red Sox can plug and play or use as trading chips.  The O's farm system has improved but nowhere near teams like the Cubs, Red Sox, etc.  

 

[foxfield]

5 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

While I think that DD has done some good things and have credited him for doing so, I also think he has made some poor choices and that his long term plan is hard to identify as an organization.   If the team goes into another prolonged collapse after 2018, it will be pretty clear that DD will take a good portion of the blame.   Particularly if Manny walks from this organization with nothing but a comp pick.  That, for me, is the red line about DD's tenure.  Either he convinces ownership to do the mega deal , or, if not, then he must trade him in the very near future for absolute maximum value.   

I agree with this 100%.  I do not think he is a saint by any means.  And as your post and CoC before, we are at a point where being good may not be enough.  We will to demonstrate that there is in fact a plan to sustain this success.  Failure to do so could well push the orioles back to their previous wasteland. 

[Spy Fox]

I'm not happy that Sale went to the Sox but I will say that in a certain practical sense I am glad he went to the Sox and not to the Yankees or Jays. The Sox were already going to be the best team on paper in the East and I think that regardless of Sale it will take a major disappointment by the Sox or a major surprise by another team for Boston to not win the division again in 2017. They just have too much talent right now. 

HOWEVER, beyond Boston the rest of the division and the league is more even. Big moves by other good-but-not-great teams like the Yankees, Jays, Astros, and Rangers I actually think put more of a dent in our playoff chances than any moves by the Red Sox. 

[25 Nuggets]

1 hour ago, Spy Fox said:

I'm not happy that Sale went to the Sox but I will say that in a certain practical sense I am glad he went to the Sox and not to the Yankees or Jays. The Sox were already going to be the best team on paper in the East and I think that regardless of Sale it will take a major disappointment by the Sox or a major surprise by another team for Boston to not win the division again in 2017. They just have too much talent right now. 

HOWEVER, beyond Boston the rest of the division and the league is more even. Big moves by other good-but-not-great teams like the Yankees, Jays, Astros, and Rangers I actually think put more of a dent in our playoff chances than any moves by the Red Sox. 

Well, with the Yankees getting Chapman back, they have the chance to give the Sawx a run for their money.  They'd need huge years from Sanchez, Bird, etc., of course and for their rotation to stay healthy.

That said, it is unnerving just how good Boston's position players are.  They are heads-and-tails better than anyone in the AL.  And now with the rotation add, there is no weakness.  Their #3 SP won the Cy Young.

The only thing that will stop them is injury.  We'll be playing for a win in the Wild Card game and Boston being defeated in a short playoff series (which absolutely can happen).

[Moondoggie]

14 hours ago, foxfield said:

Ok, fair points all around. 

Well, lets start with the easy part.  My count and I admit I haven't looked real close is that there are 8 WS Championship runs by GMS on this list.  3 by Sabean at SF, 2 by Cashman in NY, and 1 by Mozaliak in St. Louis, Dayton Moore in KC and Theo/Jed Hoyer for the Cubs.  Also, Shapiro and Freidman are not GM's at all, but sit above the GM in Toronto and Los Angeles respectively.  If I missed something I apologize. Edit to add Dombrowski won a WS while GM of Fla Marlins.

In fairness, a rating would have to consider multiple things correct?  I mean, Cashman and Sabean have been in their spots for 20 years!  Moore, Huntington, Daniels and Mozeliak are right at 10 years respectively at their spots.  And of course. Dombrowski, Cashman, Friedman, Shapiro have ties to our AL East competitors.  And Mike Rizzo has run the Wash for 7 years now.  Do we consider ownership here and payroll? 

Look, I didn't mean to be so Cavalier in saying top 4 or 5 in the game.  Sure there is room for debate.  But I'll take his 5 years here and say that his performance ranks in the top 4 or 5 still.  You cite 11 names so clearly at best you think he is middle of the pack and bottom of our division.  You sir, are entitled to your opinion and I wont begrudge that at all.

I will remind you that when we hired DD, it was mostly because NO ONE, who would have been on your list of top 10, much less top 5, would even give the Orioles the time of day to interview.  I choose to factor that in to my "ranking". 

So, with all of that said I will say the following.  I would rate the following behind DD at least over the last 5 years.

Dombrowski, Cashman, Huntington, Rizzo, Mozeliak and Daniels without blinking an eye.  

Theo, Sabean and Dayton Moore I would rate ahead of DD and Dayton Moore just barely.

Again, Friedman and Shapiro are NOT GM's but their work as GM's for Tampa Bay and Cleveland were stellar.

But again, even though I do not think DD is perfect and while I agree with Can of Corn that his departure may not leave us in good shape, his body of work here is pretty impressive.  The record of the team over his tenure speaks for itself.  Regardless of the shiny list you have prepared.  But thanks for the reply and discussion. 

Shapiro and Friedman may no longer be GMs, but they still run the show. Technically, Duquette doesn't have that title either. He's Vice President for Baseball Operations or some such nonsense. How you can look at what guys such as Neal Huntington and Mike Rizzo have done and put them behind Duquette "without blinking an eye" astounds me. Those guys completely changed the culture of their franchises.

When Duquette signed on for the Orioles (after nobody wanted him for 9 years), the heavy lifting had already been done. Machado, Jones, Davis, Tillman, Hardy, Britton, Schoop, O'Day and Wieters were already on board. Buck was already there too. Bundy had already been drafted. So aside from drafting Gausman, Duquette's contribution has mainly been in plugging holes with bargains and Rule 5 picks. While he's done a good job in that respect, he's done nothing to really lay a foundation for long-term success. He's made some ill-advised trades and, in my opinion, passed up an opportunity to deal pending free agents for prospects in 2015 when the O's had virtually no chance of making the playoffs. The farm system is a shambles. The Orioles have no prospects that would allow them to trade for top players and once Manny (who Duquette should have made a priority to extend earlier) and some of the others are gone or over the hill, there are few potential replacements on the horizon that inspire confidence that the Orioles won't be left in the wilderness for another decade. I honestly don't see that the Orioles even have a plan under Duquette. They're just winging it while they still have a good core that keeps them competitive.

[foxfield]

3 hours ago, Moondoggie said:

3 hours ago, Moondoggie said:

Shapiro and Friedman may no longer be GMs, but they still run the show. Technically, Duquette doesn't have that title either. He's Vice President for Baseball Operations or some such nonsense. How you can look at what guys such as Neal Huntington and Mike Rizzo have done and put them behind Duquette "without blinking an eye" astounds me. Those guys completely changed the culture of their franchises.

When Duquette signed on for the Orioles (after nobody wanted him for 9 years), the heavy lifting had already been done. Machado, Jones, Davis, Tillman, Hardy, Britton, Schoop, O'Day and Wieters were already on board. Buck was already there too. Bundy had already been drafted. So aside from drafting Gausman, Duquette's contribution has mainly been in plugging holes with bargains and Rule 5 picks. While he's done a good job in that respect, he's done nothing to really lay a foundation for long-term success. He's made some ill-advised trades and, in my opinion, passed up an opportunity to deal pending free agents for prospects in 2015 when the O's had virtually no chance of making the playoffs. The farm system is a shambles. The Orioles have no prospects that would allow them to trade for top players and once Manny (who Duquette should have made a priority to extend earlier) and some of the others are gone or over the hill, there are few potential replacements on the horizon that inspire confidence that the Orioles won't be left in the wilderness for another decade. I honestly don't see that the Orioles even have a plan under Duquette. They're just winging it while they still have a good core that keeps them competitive.

Shapiro and Friedman may no longer be GMs, but they still run the show. Technically, Duquette doesn't have that title either. He's Vice President for Baseball Operations or some such nonsense. How you can look at what guys such as Neal Huntington and Mike Rizzo have done and put them behind Duquette "without blinking an eye" astounds me. Those guys completely changed the culture of their franchises.

When Duquette signed on for the Orioles (after nobody wanted him for 9 years), the heavy lifting had already been done. Machado, Jones, Davis, Tillman, Hardy, Britton, Schoop, O'Day and Wieters were already on board. Buck was already there too. Bundy had already been drafted. So aside from drafting Gausman, Duquette's contribution has mainly been in plugging holes with bargains and Rule 5 picks. While he's done a good job in that respect, he's done nothing to really lay a foundation for long-term success. He's made some ill-advised trades and, in my opinion, passed up an opportunity to deal pending free agents for prospects in 2015 when the O's had virtually no chance of making the playoffs. The farm system is a shambles. The Orioles have no prospects that would allow them to trade for top players and once Manny (who Duquette should have made a priority to extend earlier) and some of the others are gone or over the hill, there are few potential replacements on the horizon that inspire confidence that the Orioles won't be left in the wilderness for another decade. I honestly don't see that the Orioles even have a plan under Duquette. They're just winging it while they still have a good core that keeps them competitive.

Rizzo?   Just emptied his farm because he lost out on Sale?  I don't like him, but feel free.    Again, my point is not that DD is the end all be all #1 Franchise Doctor of all time.  It just seems that something is going right.  You must certainly believe that if only the Orioles had a decent GM, we would have 3 WS titles over the last 5 years.  And also I am certain that you believe that our 5 year winning streak was preordained prior to DD coming on board and it only remained for him to not screw it up....

The Orioles are picked to finish last 4 of the 5 years by almost everyone.  And yet....

I do agree that the obvious lack of a plan is unnerving.  Doesn't mean there isn't one, but it is unnerving that one is not clear.  Huntington and Rizzo though may well have changed their teams culture but when DD arrived, The O's were considered to be terrible in spite of what you say is the heavy work already done.

Here is the win totals for all the teams you reference over the last 5 yrs.

Cubs 400

Red Sox 408

KC 423

NYY 435

Pirates 437

Texas 434

Wash 538

SF 429

Tor 412

St. Louis 461

LA Dodgers 455

Baltimore is at 444.  That would be 4th on the list behind Cards, Nats and Dodgers.  It should also be pointed out that for most of the 5 years 8 of your GMs would routinely be in the top 10 in payroll (Cubs, Pirates, Royals) and the O's would rate behind every team in payroll over this period except for the pirates/royals and they are nearly even with the Royals.

That is what the O's have done under DD.  It is top 5 in all of baseball.  Now it is valid to say that if after 2 additional years that we not won a WS and that there is literally nothing left to compete with beyond 2018.  If that occurs, whether DD stays or goes, will impact his tenure and his legacy.  If we have no manager, no Manny, no Tillman, no Zack and nothing to show for their departures.  I'll bring the pitchforks.

But in the meantime, lets agree that we can criticize the method, lack of winning it all and even the inability to be more aggressive in going all in....but we cant really be fair in that criticism if we cannot appreciate the job that is being done.  Let's raise the bar, yes.  But let's recognize how far we have come, no?