Dan wants to reload, not rebuild

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

If ownership thought we should rebuild we would rebuild. 

No GM alone makes a decision as important as the direction of a team without the owner.  This is as much a business decision as a baseball one.  

I agree, the buck stops with the owner. That is why the topic of this thread is whether to keep, fire, or extend Duquette. 

[oriole]

I'm surprised at the enormous amount of negativity on this thread. Gausman an Bundy could improve next year...we still have one year left of one of the top 5 players in the game plus multiple above average players around him. I get they finished the season dreadfully awful but that doesn't mean next year will be the same. Get some decent pitching and we could be in the playoffs. 

[eddie83]

13 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I agree, the buck stops with the owner. That is why the topic of this thread is whether to keep, fire, or extend Duquette. 

Let me be clear. If they want another GM I am fine with that. I just think be careful what you wish for. 

At the end of the day the limitations around here make it a very difficult job. I just get frustrated that people think someone else can easily navigate around the Orioles self made potholes.  

People expect the GM to make few if any mistakes while the team is in contend mode. Dan had to get permission to deal Britton this July, you think he gets that in the past offseason?

The owner limits young talent into the system-International,,won't sign top tier starting pitching, has the strictest physicals in the sport, has a great relationship with a powerful manager who has his own set of ideas, has a top executive in Brady who neither reports to the GM or Buck. A little help here or there and maybe some of the mistakes Dan has made never happen. Now does he get a free pass for them, of course not. 

Perhaps if this was a better organization the GM would be free to implement his thoughts. Then after a period of time he gets extended or fired. Around here it is jump through this hoop, then another, then another. It is criminal and comical to think an employee  under contract for one more season decides the direction. Does Peter even grasp the difference between a Manny and Davis in terms of age, positions and skill set? Did he sign Davis because he likes him personally? 

Unfortunately this organization will never have the ability to truly be a great one until someone else owns the team. In the meantime I just hope for the best under difficult circumstances. 

[eddie83]

30 minutes ago, oriole said:

I'm surprised at the enormous amount of negativity on this thread. Gausman an Bundy could improve next year...we still have one year left of one of the top 5 players in the game plus multiple above average players around him. I get they finished the season dreadfully awful but that doesn't mean next year will be the same. Get some decent pitching and we could be in the playoffs. 

They could easily be back in the playoffs next year. The Twins lost over a 100 games last year. 

I think the concern with many fans is putting all your eggs in a one year basket while not looking at the big picture.  

[Aristotelian]

51 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Let me be clear. If they want another GM I am fine with that. I just think be careful what you wish for. 

Unfortunately this organization will never have the ability to truly be a great one until someone else owns the team. In the meantime I just hope for the best under difficult circumstances. 

I certainly agree. I don't have any animus against DD personally. Whoever is in charge, I would like to see them get some return for Manny. That means either extending or replacing DD. I don't have any expectation they will do so. Probably looking at second tier prospects in a rental deal, although it is possible we are good enough next year that they keep him the whole season and he walks for a draft pick. That would be a tragedy.

[Aristotelian]

53 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

They could easily be back in the playoffs next year. The Twins lost over a 100 games last year. 

I think the concern with many fans is putting all your eggs in a one year basket while not looking at the big picture.  

The Twins were in such a different place last year. Good core of young players, no bad contracts. Could be wrong but I see it getting worse before it gets better for us.

[wildcard]

Of course we do not know what will happen this off season but if

1) The O's extend Buck for three years

2) The O's acquire two #3 starters through free agency, trade of minor leaguers and/or Trumbo  or the signing of international major league ready starter(s) like they did with Chen.  I don't think they need the expensive of TOR starters.

3) sign Manny to a long term contract

4) Bring back Hardy or Flaherty as a utility infield om a cheap contract to make sure that Beckman's September collapse is not a season long problem in 2018.

5) extend Brach

6) Sign Tillman on a make good contract to compete with Castro and Ynoa for the 5th starter spot

7) Sign Pedro Alvarez if Trumbo is traded to boost the left-handed hitting

Then I think we can hope for better years from Davis and Manny,.  As well as the development of Hays, Sisco.and Santander.

In this case only Britton and Jones will be major O's free agents next fall.  The O's can determine if they need to try to sign either during the 2018 off season.

These moves should eliminate the closing window for the O's after next season.

 

[maybenxtyr]

12 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The Twins were in such a different place last year. Good core of young players, no bad contracts. Could be wrong but I see it getting worse before it gets better for us.

I agree unfortunately. Even if some of the young guys pan out, there's just not enough open positions. Couple that with the pitching and overpay contracts, it provides a bleak future.

I'm still beating the drum about some animosity as well. You don't generally see a team mail it in like this when they are working in cohesion. I hope I'm wrong and they rebound in 2018, but I'm taking the half empty approach right now.

[maybenxtyr]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Of course we do not know what will happen this off season but if

1) The O's extend Buck for three years

2) The O's acquire two #3 starters through free agency, trade of minor leaguers and/or Trumbo  or the signing of international major league ready starter(s) like they did with Chen.  I don't think they need the expensive of TOR starters.

3) sign Manny to a long term contract

4) Bring back Hardy or Flaherty as a utility infield om a cheap contract to make sure that Beckman's September collapse is not a season long problem in 2018.

5) extend Brach

6) Sign Tillman on a make good contract to compete with Castro and Ynoa for the 5th starter spot

7) Sign Pedro Alvarez if Trumbo is traded to boost the left-handed hitting

Then I think we can hope for better years from Davis and Manny,.  As well as the development of Hays, Sisco.and Santander.

In this case only Britton and Jones will be major O's free agents next fall.  The O's can determine if they need to try to sign either during the 2018 off season.

These moves should eliminate the closing window for the O's after next season.

 

I applaude your optimism. 

[Ohfan67]

I, like most of you, would trade Manny this offseason and do at least a limited rebuild. But that's, of course, very unlikely to happen. I don't think anyone expected that to happen with Angelos turning 89 next summer and DD and Buck being in their final contracts. The stated goal has been to make the playoffs for the past five or so years and that's their goal again next year. It's a frustrating situation, but it is what it is. Given the situation...the Orioles have 40 or so (maybe even more) to spend. Acquiring two significant starting pitchers is a possibility. Again, I would like to trade Manny for some young pitching and go young for a few years, but that's not happening. But if the goal is to make the playoffs next year, then I think 40 to 55 million could significantly and maybe dramatically improve the team. 

[Bradysburns]

47 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I, like most of you, would trade Manny this offseason and do at least a limited rebuild. But that's, of course, very unlikely to happen. I don't think anyone expected that to happen with Angelos turning 89 next summer and DD and Buck being in their final contracts. The stated goal has been to make the playoffs for the past five or so years and that's their goal again next year. It's a frustrating situation, but it is what it is. Given the situation...the Orioles have 40 or so (maybe even more) to spend. Acquiring two significant starting pitchers is a possibility. Again, I would like to trade Manny for some young pitching and go young for a few years, but that's not happening. But if the goal is to make the playoffs next year, then I think 40 to 55 million could significantly and maybe dramatically improve the team. 

I think that's a great plan. You deal Manny or resign him this offseason. If they don't sign him this offseason, he's gone... along with the three elite-level prospects we could have gotten for him. 

I'd look to trade Manny, and -- if he's healthy -- resign Britton. I think now that he's considered human again, we could have him at a more reasonable rate. 

Let's say you get back a couple MLB-ready prospects: maybe a pitcher or two, and/or a young toolsy outfielder. You might run that pitcher out in Spring Training, to join the rotation. And then... with all the cash you're saving by not signing Manny, you go out and buy the two best starting pitchers you can afford... plus add in Dan's usual assortment of reclamation projects, last-minute FA signings, etc. You might have a chance to compete again next year. 

Bottom line: We MUST get this starting pitching situation sorted out. It's a disaster. We have Bundy and Gausman. That's pretty much it. 

[Going Underground]

4 hours ago, eddie83 said:

My sarcastic point as you well know is that the owner makes these calls, not the GM.  

I know.Davis also wants to meet the owner. Maybe salary cut and ticket price cut.

[Il BuonO]

8 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

I know.Davis also wants to meet the owner. Maybe salary cut and ticket price cut.

Yeah, I'm sure he's taking less money due to his underperformance.

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Of course we do not know what will happen this off season but if

1) The O's extend Buck for three years

2) The O's acquire two #3 starters through free agency, trade of minor leaguers and/or Trumbo  or the signing of international major league ready starter(s) like they did with Chen.  I don't think they need the expensive of TOR starters.

3) sign Manny to a long term contract

4) Bring back Hardy or Flaherty as a utility infield om a cheap contract to make sure that Beckman's September collapse is not a season long problem in 2018.

5) extend Brach

6) Sign Tillman on a make good contract to compete with Castro and Ynoa for the 5th starter spot

7) Sign Pedro Alvarez if Trumbo is traded to boost the left-handed hitting

Then I think we can hope for better years from Davis and Manny,.  As well as the development of Hays, Sisco.and Santander.

In this case only Britton and Jones will be major O's free agents next fall.  The O's can determine if they need to try to sign either during the 2018 off season.

These moves should eliminate the closing window for the O's after next season.

 

If DD is able to extend Manny, I would go ahead and make DD GM for life. 

[Slappy]

I'm glad they are reloading.  They are not competent enough as an organization to pull off a Houston or Washington style tank-and-rebuild.  We'd just get ourselves back into a 15 year losing streak like the last time we "tried" it.