Cafardo: Showalter losing the clubhouse

[ORIOLE33]

Hard to give your ace rest when you're still fighting for the division.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, ORIOLE33 said:

Hard to give your ace rest when you're still fighting for the division.

Didn't say it would have been easy.

But Sale was struggling going down the stretch.  As a manager you might want to try and deal with that.

It isn't as if his struggles started in the postseason.

[Malike]

Farrell really killed it in Toronto too. His success in Boston had nothing to do with a supremely talented team.

[OFFNY]

On 10/8/2017 at 10:53 PM, ArtVanDelay said:

 

It seems legit to me. Buck made the worst managerial decision I’ve ever seen in the WC game last year. It makes sense that the clubhouse would turn on him after that. Not sure why this is so unbelievable to you.

 

o

 

Art, I apologize if I was overzealous in stating my case/opinion.

 

o

[Aglets]

10 hours ago, Sessh said:

Last 5 seasons

John Farrell  432-378 (.533) Postseason: 12-11, 1 Pennant, 1 WS title

Buck Showalter 426-384 (.526) Postseason: 3-5

John Farrell = Awful
Buck Showalter = Great

Sure. Makes total sense.

You're putting Farrell up on a pedestal cuz he has won 6 more games over a 5 year span than Buck?    Literally like one game per year?

I don't think it's the sign of a good manager when the GM says that they were going to fire you no matter how the postseason went.   And you realize that all of those postseason stats for Farrell come from 2013 right?  Which was followed by back-to-back last place finishes.  Give Buck a $200M payroll like the Sox had in '13 and I bet you see an improvement.

Talk about cherry picked stats.

Seems pretty clear to me that if the players wanted Farrell there he'd be returning in '18.   And it seems pretty clear to me that if Buck had 'lost the clubhouse' this year that he would NOT be coming back in '18 when he clearly is.

Ask people in baseball which one of these two guys they'd prefer to have managing their team and I bet it's over 2:1 in favor of Buck.

 

I'm not saying Farrell is 'awful' at managing, but he's probably in the average-ish range.  Buck is absolutely above average and I think what he's done over his career in terms of wins and turning franchises around shows that pretty clearly.

[Aglets]

9 hours ago, Malike said:

Farrell really killed it in Toronto too. His success in Boston had nothing to do with a supremely talented team.

I'm not detecting any sarcasm here (please correct me if I'm wrong).

So just in case you're serious..............here are the actual numbers:

Farrell in Toronto:

2011:  81-81  (4th place)

2012:  73-89  (4th place)

And that's it.   I'm not entirely sure how that would qualify as 'killing it.'

[Tx Oriole]

10 hours ago, birdwatcher55 said:

Farrell is a good manager. WS title, three divisional titles. This guy is not chopped liver. He will have another job soon. Book it.

Maybe he will. 

[Frobby]

11 hours ago, ArtVanDelay said:

  Farrell is universally considered one of the worst managers in baseball.

Really?    Where's your evidence for that?    

Here's a Sporting News list from mid-2016 that ranks Farrell 10th best out of 30.  http://www.sportingnews.com/amp/mlb/list/baseball-manager-rankings-2016-best-worst-bochy-maddon/1bb6iaj2v3zlx1hafy6nniks6h

Here's a list from msn.com from preseason 2017 that ranks Farrell 9th.   http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/ranking-all-30-mlb-managers/ss-AAnITyC#image=22

Here's a list from Athlon in early 2016 that ranks him 14th.   https://www.google.com/amp/s/athlonsports.com/mlb/ranking-all-30-managers-major-league-baseball-2016%3Famp

These aren't three lists I picked because they contradict you.   They're the first three lists of recent manager rankings I found when googling "worst managers baseball."    So whether these lists are correct or whether you agree, it's hard to say Farrell is "universally" considered one of the worst managers in baseball.

Buck, by the way, ranked 4th, 5th and 4th on these three lists.   

[Aglets]

9 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

Nobody is questioning Buck's value. I just think his message and shelf life in Baltimore have expired. It's like what Paul Holmgren said in Green Bay when he got fired: after so many years, your self life expires with an organization.

Seems kind of illogical to me.  Is he only 'valuable' to a team other than the O's now?  You make it sound like it's due to factors outside of his control.  If he did a good job from 2010-2016 (i would also include this year) I don't see why you would think he's no longer able to do it next year.

I will say that if he doesn't get an extension this off-season then it's probably pretty likely that '18 is his last ride.   Then all of the naysayers will celebrate as we go through the carousel all over again.   Maybe Trembley would take our call.

[Frobby]

25 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

Nobody is questioning Buck's value. I just think his message and shelf life in Baltimore have expired. It's like what Paul Holmgren said in Green Bay when he got fired: after so many years, your self life expires with an organization.

I don't disagree that sometimes you just need to change the messenger.     I'm not things have reached that point here, though.    I feel Buck has earned the benefit of the doubt and that you don't fire him unless you're quite sure he's reached his shelf life, as you put it.

[24fps]

I suspect Buck has a job in Baltimore for many more years if he wants it.  That being said, I would be surprised if he stays to manage a non-competitive team.  It's the team's shelf life that may be more to the point.

[Malike]

5 hours ago, Aglets said:

I'm not detecting any sarcasm here (please correct me if I'm wrong).

So just in case you're serious..............here are the actual numbers:

Farrell in Toronto:

2011:  81-81  (4th place)

2012:  73-89  (4th place)

And that's it.   I'm not entirely sure how that would qualify as 'killing it.'

How you didn't detect any sarcasm escapes me. Sorry that you missed it.

[Frobby]

44 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

Just think his voice has fallen on deaf ears around the clubhouse. It happens to a lot of managers.

"Pitch better" certainly has fallen on deaf ears.    

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

"Pitch better" certainly has fallen on deaf ears.    

When Buck tries to say "Pitch better" all that comes out is TTTP.

[thezeroes]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

When Buck tries to say "Pitch better" all that comes out is TTTP.

With your constant reference of the TTTP, I guess you would think that ALL stolen bases are the catchers fault???