Baltimore Sun: Angelos Story

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, gtman55 said:

So Tony, basically you're saying the Orioles are doomed. Even when Peter Angelos is gone his sons will continue his ill fated style of mismanagement and overriding his baseball people.  And Brady being Brady. Wow this is gloomy.

It certainly is gloomy unless his sons are going to transform once they have full control. Everything that I've heard or read though leads me to conclude they will operate much like their father, allowing those close to them to influence major decisions rather than hiring professional baseball people with a track record to do so.

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I don't think that John and Lou Angelos being involve is necessarily a bad thing.  If the evidence so far is that they signed Cobb, Cashner and Tillman, I think that is a good thing.  They addressed one the O's biggest weaknesses being the starting pitching.  Cobb seems to be getting better as he gets passed his spring training during the season period.   Cashner is about what a 4th starter would be expected to be.  He could have 4-3 record if he had some help from the pen, the O's defense and the offense.    Tillman was only given a 3m contract for a reason.   He only lasted 7 starts. The right action was taken to get him out of the rotation as soon as the O's felt their farm system produced a starter who is ready for a trial in the rotation.

I can't fault any of that.

The O's problems have been 1) an unreasonable hard April schedule imposed by MLB, 2) injuries, and 3)  non performance by many O's players in comparison to what could reasonably have been expected.   Really only Manny and Gausman have done what was expected of them to this point.

Though Brady might want to the O's President of Baseball Operations, that has not happen so far.   He is really an advisor to ownership.  He does have some baseball background for that job.   

To me what Buck decides to do and what ownership allows him to do going forward  is a big key to the O's future success.    It looks like no one will have the traditional GM powers that are seen in other organizations.  But Dan probably never had those powers anyway and the team won more games than any other AL team from 2012-2016.   

I don't know were this end up but I am not sure that John, Lou, Brady and Buck are not a good combination to make the changes in the players  that are needed to return to contention.

Sorry, couldn't resist! 

[foxfield]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

...I don't know were this end up but I am not sure that John, Lou, Brady and Buck are not a good combination to make the changes in the players  that are needed to return to contention.

Wow!

I agree that this may be what the Orioles have going forward and I agree with the part I didn't quote here that they deserve credit for Cashner and Cobb.  But this is also the group that blocked trades for Manny and Britton, extended Trumbo and Davis and moved forward this season with a roster that included 8 players that were either Rule V or non-roster invitees on their opening 25 man roster.

If you believe that this group would have done better if only they were not undermined by that dastardly devious GM DD, then I don't know what to say.  The more this group "makes decisions" the worse this entire group looks.  That is irrefutable.

[wildcard]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

Sorry, couldn't resist! 

I doubt you are sorry,  But that is alright.   O's fans that want a traditional organization structure are probably never going to happy as long as Peter has a say in the running of the O's.   But I have been encourage that the team could actually win under his untraditional style for an extended period.

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

That’s an excellent article, and in my opinion it’s not merely redundant of things previously reported by Tony, Ken Rosenthal and others.    There’s a lot of insight into how Lou and John interact, and a bit more insight into how Brady sees his role developing.   I thought it was interesting that Brady was so open about his role and ambitions, and his own views regarding the roles played by the various members of the Angelos family.   

I think my big takeaway, not that it’s a surprise, is that no GM here is ever going to have the autonomy that most GM’s have elsewhere.    Ownership is always going to be heavily involved in significant free agent signings and trades.    Brady is almost certainly going to be hanging around doing what he does.    In that scenario, I honestly don’t know if they can do better than the Duquette/Showalter duo.  I’m not always thrilled with Dan, but I’m not sure anyone better would take the job under these circumstances.  And if he is fired or chooses to leave, it may be that kicking Buck upstairs or giving him dual responsibility may be the best available option.    I’m not happy about that, but it may be the reality.  

I agree Frobby here.  Also I don't know if it is mentioned anywhere here, but a great deal of the "source material" seems to be from Brady who does get quoted and another source that is unnamed and unquoted.  Would that be DD?  Or am I reading the article wrong.

 

[Tony-OH]

Just now, wildcard said:

I doubt you are sorry,  But that is alright.   O's fans that want a traditional organization structure are probably never going to happy as long as Peter has a say in the running of the O's.   But I have been encourage that the team could actually win under his untraditional style for an extended period.

I'm fairly certain you are encouraged by the sun rising, the sun moving along to the west, and then eventually setting. You are encouraged by a sunny day, a rainy day, hell even a nice cold, icy day that lets you sit inside and enjoy a nice warm day inside. You are perennial positive person and I can appreciate that.

I mean, you've long given up any kind of reason or objectivity at this point, but that's ok, we know what we are going to get with your posts. 

I honestly wish whatever makes you not just a glass is half full, but a "glass is about to be full once again regardless of every other shred of information that would dictate otherwise" kind of person, is something you could bottle and pass around because it must be easier to leave in that world. 

I honestly mean this. The problem is I live in the world of reality where when you have a lot of smoke, and you can actually see flames, you go ahead and assume something is on fire.

But you keep on keeping on. It's always interesting to see how you will twist something to be rosey, and anyone who can do that while being an O's fan has a real skill.

[wildcard]

5 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Wow!

I agree that this may be what the Orioles have going forward and I agree with the part I didn't quote here that they deserve credit for Cashner and Cobb.  But this is also the group that blocked trades for Manny and Britton, extended Trumbo and Davis and moved forward this season with a roster that included 8 players that were either Rule V or non-roster invitees on their opening 25 man roster.

If you believe that this group would have done better if only they were not undermined by that dastardly devious GM DD, then I don't know what to say.  The more this group "makes decisions" the worse this entire group looks.  That is irrefutable.

I don't think Dan is either dastardly or devious.   I think it is likely that the O's would not have won as many games as the did without him from 2012 -2016.    I think he lost some standing with O's ownership with the Toronto thing.  Which is exactly what the Blue Jays wanted.

I don't know who takes on the O's non traditional GM job in the future.  But what I do know is the Buck built a 100 win team in Arizona in his second season on play there.   He was the driving force along with the ownership money.  So I could see him with an expanded role going forward.

[clapdiddy]

I made the point in Tony Soprano's manager thread that the Orioles will not be able to attract quality people for either the GM or Manager position because of the dysfunction pointed out in this article.

Why would any quality baseball mind even consider it?

[Dr. Unk]

Well that was a heartwarming article....

[Ripken]

I mean, if the sons are going to be just as bad as the father... you gotta wonder how many fans will leave.  It's been a long painful ride with Angelos and I don't know that I can stand another 30 years of this dysfunction.  Peter getting old and possibly selling has been the potential silver lining for a lot of us.  That, or the boys taking over and doing things better.  With those hopes dashed, there's little to look forward to.  I honestly feel bad for the many, many Orioles fans that are also Redskins fans.

[gtman55]

1 minute ago, clapdiddy said:

I made the point in Tony Soprano's manager thread that the Orioles will not be able to attract quality people for either the GM or Manager position because of the dysfunction pointed out in this article.

Why would any quality baseball mind even consider it?

I hear you. This organization has a reputation now as a complete $hit show (for lack of better words, sorry).  Unless Angelos and sons sell, I'm afraid history will repeat itself over and over. But honestly, once the old man is gone, they could make a mint. Why not sell?

 

[wildcard]

37 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm fairly certain you are encouraged by the sun rising, the sun moving along to the west, and then eventually setting. You are encouraged by a sunny day, a rainy day, hell even a nice cold, icy day that lets you sit inside and enjoy a nice warm day inside. You are perennial positive person and I can appreciate that.

I mean, you've long given up any kind of reason or objectivity at this point, but that's ok, we know what we are going to get with your posts. 

I honestly wish whatever makes you not just a glass is half full, but a "glass is about to be full once again regardless of every other shred of information that would dictate otherwise" kind of person, is something you could bottle and pass around because it must be easier to leave in that world. 

I honestly mean this. The problem is I live in the world of reality where when you have a lot of smoke, and you can actually see flames, you go ahead and assume something is on fire.

But you keep on keeping on. It's always interesting to see how you will twist something to be rosey, and anyone who can do that while being an O's fan has a real skill.

I don't see what the O's and O's fans went through  last September or this season as rosey.  I don't think the 14 years of losing were rosey.   I do think that the team found a way to win for 5 years as rosey.   

I subscribe to the thought that " if you can keep your head while others are losing theirs" its a good thing.  I think if Buck leaves we are in for a long recovery period.  If he stays the recovery could be short.  And I think that is entirely reasonable.

[atomic]

9 minutes ago, clapdiddy said:

I made the point in Tony Soprano's manager thread that the Orioles will not be able to attract quality people for either the GM or Manager position because of the dysfunction pointed out in this article.

Why would any quality baseball mind even consider it?

Just have to find someone that has been out of work for 10 years.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, clapdiddy said:

I made the point in Tony Soprano's manager thread that the Orioles will not be able to attract quality people for either the GM or Manager position because of the dysfunction pointed out in this article.

Why would any quality baseball mind even consider it?

Well, the one thing to consider here is there are only 30 of those jobs around. I've heard its getting harder for older baseball people with experience to get jobs because the in thing now is to hire those cheap, smart young kids with no baseball experience to do jobs that traditionally assistant GMs and even GM would do.

Baseball has always been a who you know kind of game, but then again most sports are like this. But this new thought process that ownership now has the information available to them and if they just had it all, they could be as smart or smarter than career baseball men seems to more and more prevalent.

I can guarantee you that Angelos has always considered himself the smartest guy in the room. It appears his sons may now be acting the same way. they can run this with a little help from their friend Brady, who was a baseball guy so that's good enough.

But, at some point someone needs to do Duquette's duties of at least digging up the potential trades before offering them up for decisions. This is what every other Orioles GM had to do as well, but they all had varying  levels of influence at different times which gave them more power or less power depending on how they could influence ownership.

It appears as long as the Angelos family owns this team this is how things will work. 

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I don't see what the O's and O's fans went through  last September or this season as rosey.  I don't think the 14 years of losing were rosey.   I do think that the team found a way to win for 5 years as rosey.   

I subscribe to the thought that " if you can keep your head while others are losing their" its a good thing.  I think if Buck leaves we are in for a long recovery period.  If he stays the recovery could be short.  And I think that is entirely reasonable.

Ok, thinking Buck can solve this is a reasonable opinion. I don't subscribe to that theory, but if you feel giving Buck GM duties or President duties will solve the problems then at least I can say he's definitely a baseball man.