Pitching needs some normalcy

[sportsfan8703]

Just now, glenn__davis said:

Hopefully derailed.  Never was a fan of the shuttle.  Guys would come in and pitch well and then get sent back down to get another guy up.  May have helped in the short term in some instances but I think long term hurts morale and leads to frustration.  I'm hopeful that that line of thinking is a thing of the past.

Are any of those guys that came up and “threw well” on an active mlb roster?  So it was more of a talent thing than a “Norfolk shuttle” thing. 

Sometimes guys can come up, be fresh, work quick, be aggressive, have no recent scouting book, and have success. 

Yefry would be a perfect example of that right now. 

[Aristotelian]

6 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Hopefully derailed.  Never was a fan of the shuttle.  Guys would come in and pitch well and then get sent back down to get another guy up.  May have helped in the short term in some instances but I think long term hurts morale and leads to frustration.  I'm hopeful that that line of thinking is a thing of the past.

Doing the shuttle is better than pitching in AAA all year. If you are on the shuttle, you are on the 40 man roster and effectively part of the MLB team. Guys that perform will eventually stick, whether it is this year or next year. Elias has done a nice job of assembling pitchers with options. We should use them. Sending Araujo down will help.

[Redskins Rick]

27 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Not the point Rick. 

4th game of season and you have only 3 pen arms available. Not good. Givens already pushed. Guys pitching on odd rest.  

My point.

Enjoy the wins.

Stop over analyzing the situation, there is no point this season.

Some felt, we would have more losses than last season, so at least they are on the right track.

 

[glenn__davis]

4 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Doing the shuttle is better than pitching in AAA all year. If you are on the shuttle, you are on the 40 man roster and effectively part of the MLB team. Guys that perform will eventually stick, whether it is this year or next year. Elias has done a nice job of assembling pitchers with options. We should use them. Sending Araujo down will help.

I think you (and others) are thinking like the old regime.  We know Buck/Dan loved having those options and manipulating the 40-man and bringing guys up and down.  I don't think that's nearly as common among other teams, though certainly I could be wrong.  We don't know how the Hyde/Elias regime is going to work these sorts of situations, I just don't think yo-yoing guys back and forth does them any favors.  Let them get settled here for a bit.

You specifically mentioned Means - comes in and does a great job in NY, and he should be sent down for what, another AAAA guy?  Just don't think that sends a good message.

[eddie83]

24 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

My point.

Enjoy the wins.

Stop over analyzing the situation, there is no point this season.

Some felt, we would have more losses than last season, so at least they are on the right track.

 

I can enjoy the wins and be concerned with how the arms are being used. 

Didn’t like Castro getting up in the 9th inning last night at the end either. 

Hope I am not coming across a bad way. Just think we have somehow cobbled enough pitching together because of some good hitting and big enough leads.  

[eddie83]

31 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

Assuming Cashner sucks tonight, he has to go 4+ anyway. He just has to take one for the bullpen. Yac and Araujo finish up the last 3+. The odds of scoring a lot of runs off Stroman are not good, so we lose big tonight. At that point the bullpen is reset and rested. Araujo gets replace by a real pitcher in less than two weeks.

Look for 3 from Karns and 4 from Means tomorrow. That gets us to the back of the pen and no one needs to go more than an inning unless we go extras. 

If Karns and Means can be stretched out and perform well over the next few weeks, they become rotation options if needed. Either could be a good candidate for replacing the bullpen "operner" games and Cashner.

Means going 4 innings after 79 pitches and 2 days rest? Not going to happen. 

[UpstateNYfan]

Anyone that expects normalcy this year is going to have a lot to write and complain about. IMO the next couple years is to find players and not pigeon hole them. There are going to be some seemingly stupid moves, but sometimes you learn more by making stupid moves than by going by the safe predictable rules. I expect there will be more normalcy as the season progresses. All these guys, from top to bottom are learning each day. Give them a chance to learn.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, UpstateNYfan said:

Anyone that expects normalcy this year is going to have a lot to write and complain about. IMO the next couple years is to find players and not pigeon hole them. There are going to be some seemingly stupid moves, but sometimes you learn more by making stupid moves than by going by the safe predictable rules. I expect there will be more normalcy as the season progresses. All these guys, from top to bottom are learning each day. Give them a chance to learn.

I don’t think that’s really the issue though.   The issue is that navigating the next several games may be difficult because of the heavy bullpen usage and the limited utility of Araujo.   

Luckily the O’s have an off day Friday if they can cobble things together until then.    

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think that’s really the issue though.   The issue is that navigating the next several games may be difficult because of the heavy bullpen usage and the limited utility of Araujo.   

Luckily the O’s have an off day Friday if they can cobble things together until then.    

Roch had this to say:

Quote

Araujo basically is stashed until his Rule 5 status melts away this month and he can be optioned, whether to Double-A Bowie or Triple-A Norfolk. Hyde is trying to search for the lowest-pressure situations, though the game won’t always cooperate.

 

[Just Regular]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

Not a fan of Castro being used that long. He is too valuable as daily guy. You keep going multiple innings with guys they are down awhile. 

I don't think Elias/Hyde see us in any need of a daily guy.  Remember when Chris Ray (and Tanner Scott more recently) started in the minors to gain experience faster and grow their repertoires - I think that is what is happening on the major league roster now.  

I don't see much difference between 45 appearances of mostly 2 innings or 80 appearances of 1 inning for Castro-type guys.  And if Castro hits his upside and becomes a poor man's Hader, he could be looking at 3-inning asks in a few years.

[LookinUp]

What position players could be sent down for another arm? I think we need to consider that in the short run. Smith. Anyone else?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, LookinUp said:

What position players could be sent down for another arm? I think we need to consider that in the short run. Smith. Anyone else?

Davis?

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, glenn__davis said:

I think you (and others) are thinking like the old regime.  We know Buck/Dan loved having those options and manipulating the 40-man and bringing guys up and down.  I don't think that's nearly as common among other teams, though certainly I could be wrong.  We don't know how the Hyde/Elias regime is going to work these sorts of situations, I just don't think yo-yoing guys back and forth does them any favors.  Let them get settled here for a bit.

You specifically mentioned Means - comes in and does a great job in NY, and he should be sent down for what, another AAAA guy?  Just don't think that sends a good message.

I thought he was the last guy on the team. He is not a prospect and doesn't have a great resume. I would emphasize that he is on the 40 man and he is part of the team and he should expect to be back. If you are talking about DL Hall or Grayson, yeah, don't mess with those guys.

I think the shuttle should/will be an even bigger part of the new regime. These guys are clearly not wedded to a five man rotation with the starter going 5+ on every turn. If we are going to do stuff like bullpen days once or twice a week, that is going to take an enormous toll and we will need fresh bodies. Having guys with options and using the shuttle is the key. Check out the Rays transactions last year. They were optioning a guy every week or two. http://m.rays.mlb.com/roster/transactions/2018/04

[Aristotelian]

14 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

What position players could be sent down for another arm? I think we need to consider that in the short run. Smith. Anyone else?

Smith is our best hitter. I believe Means, Yacobonis, and Fry could all be sent down and then recalled later.

[LookinUp]

The thing about this pitching issue is, in theory, it should really be short term. That will depend on whether Cashner and Bundy can usually get through 5 IP though. Cobb and Hess seem like they will. Karns might be stretched out enough in a few weeks to be an actual starter. 

Im just less worried about openers screwing up our pen than I am our established starters screwing up our pen. If that happens, maybe Hyde decides they’re actually bullpen arms and not starters at all.