It's about to get ugly...

[Fan4Life]

They are pushing the, "don't play younger, more talented players because we don't want to hurt team chemistry button" though.

Care to list who the younger more talented players are that are getting the stiff arm? Reimold isn't better than Scott, and could be a toss up with Montanez. Costanzo and Moore have struggled at AAA and certainly haven't provided the ammunition that they'd be better than Millar or Mora. At least that's my view. Weiters is the only guy that nobody can argue has the talent to play for us now, but could argure whether that's the best idea or not.

[DrungoHazewood]

Roberts will decide the direction of the team in the next 4 years IMO, whatever they decide to do with him...

So yes he is that important, just because MI prospects are platinum and I doubt you get a good one back for Roberts who would only be a 1 year rental. MacPhail had more leverage last offseason and didn't get any spectacular offers, so I doubt they get any better this offseason. Our best 2B prospects are 4 years away...

As you often do, you're taking this melodramatic view of the baseball world. One where there are only a very few, limited options, and if you don't exercise your current Option A or Option B then the Orioles are stuck with absolutely nothing.

Nothing is ever that black-and-white. If Roberts leaves the O's get extra draft picks. They could trade him at next year's deadline, or during this offseason for players that could be flipped (along with others) for a second baseman. The O's could sign a free agent second baseman. They could sign a Japanese middle infielder. They could sign a shortstop and move him to second. They could draft a college player like Dustin Pedrioa, who went from Arizona State to the Red Sox in under two years.

The fate of one player never decides the fate of an organization.

[DrungoHazewood]

I believe they call this a straw man argument.

Kind of like the "everyone here wants to trade all the players over 30" argument.

[Frobby]

I'd submit that it's good offensive players having good years that's bringing you back from deficits, and lack of pitching that's losing the game.

The fact is, the O's had plenty of games last year where they fought back after getting down early. The big difference was, the bullpen just kept allowing more runs, so the comeback efforts were for naught. In the first half of this year, the bullpen shut down the opponents a lot of the time, and the offense had a chance to come back and win the game. Now, the deficits are larger before the bullpen gets in, and the bullpen is overtaxed, and is starting to crumble. This has little to do with chemistry or character. It has everything to do with the quality and depth of our pitching, just as it was last year.

[JTrea81]

Care to list who the younger more talented players are that are getting the stiff arm? Reimold isn't better than Scott, and could be a toss up with Montanez. Costanzo and Moore have struggled at AAA and certainly haven't provided the ammunition that they'd be better than Millar or Mora. At least that's my view. Weiters is the only guy that nobody can argue has the talent to play for us now, but could argure whether that's the best idea or not.

Come September, if it's determined Millar can't net us a comp pick, he should be released as should Payton just to provide time to evaluate the skills of Moore, Costanzo, Reimold and Montanez. September needs to be a time to evaluate players that can contribute to the team's future. If Trembley runs those two out there and refuses to play the guys we need to take a look at, I hope he is let go at the end of the season, because we can't afford to not evaluate the young guys.

Hopefully MacPhail will at least take care of Payton so he's no longer a roadblock to evaluating guys in CF, as Reimold, Scott and Montanez all deserve a shot to see what they have there, just in case Jones is hurt again next season.

[JTrea81]

As you often do, you're taking this melodramatic view of the baseball world. One where there are only a very few, limited options, and if you don't exercise your current Option A or Option B then the Orioles are stuck with absolutely nothing.

Nothing is ever that black-and-white. If Roberts leaves the O's get extra draft picks. They could trade him at next year's deadline, or during this offseason for players that could be flipped (along with others) for a second baseman. The O's could sign a free agent second baseman. They could sign a Japanese middle infielder. They could sign a shortstop and move him to second. They could draft a college player like Dustin Pedrioa, who went from Arizona State to the Red Sox in under two years.

The fate of one player never decides the fate of an organization.

Have you seen the FA second baseman list? Nobody is of Roberts caliber. I do agree though that letting him walk for picks is better than trading him at this point if he isn't going to be extended. The point is you know what you have at 2B with Roberts for the next 3-4 years IMO and Roberts only makes this team better.

And let's not forget what happened when MacPhail traded Tejada. Just where do we have a hole again?

[Fan4Life]

Come September, if it's determined Millar can't net us a comp pick, he should be released as should Payton just to provide time to evaluate the skills of Moore, Costanzo, Reimold and Montanez. September needs to be a time to evaluate players that can contribute to the team's future. If Trembley runs those two out there and refuses to play the guys we need to take a look at, I hope he is let go at the end of the season, because we can't afford to not evaluate the young guys.

Hopefully MacPhail will at least take care of Payton so he's no longer a roadblock to evaluating guys in CF, as Reimold, Scott and Montanez all deserve a shot to see what they have there, just in case Jones is hurt again next season.

As I've seen pointed out on here over and over, Payton isn't blocking anyone because none of the guys in question can play CF, at least in the veiw of our management. I can see your point on Millar, but if we're only talking about one guy that may play thorugh September that maybe shouldn't, that's not really enough of a problem to support the level of discussion(much of it negative) that it has led to. We're not really that far apart.

[longflyball]

2 more @ CLE (who seems to own us even when they stink)

Cleveland is not actually all that bad. Their Pythagorean record is 60-58. They just have a really bad bullpen.

[Sports Guy]

Care to list who the younger more talented players are that are getting the stiff arm? Reimold isn't better than Scott, and could be a toss up with Montanez. Costanzo and Moore have struggled at AAA and certainly haven't provided the ammunition that they'd be better than Millar or Mora. At least that's my view. Weiters is the only guy that nobody can argue has the talent to play for us now, but could argure whether that's the best idea or not.

Reimold and Wieters are more talented than Millar and Ramon.

[ledzepp8]

Kind of like the "everyone here wants to trade all the players over 30" argument.

Well I've never made that argument.

[DrungoHazewood]

Have you seen the FA second baseman list? Nobody is of Roberts caliber. I do agree though that letting him walk for picks is better than trading him at this point if he isn't going to be extended. The point is you know what you have at 2B with Roberts for the next 3-4 years IMO and Roberts only makes this team better.

Roberts is pretty likely to be an above-average or average second baseman for the next few years. Less likely after that. Signing him to a 4-5 year deal means you probably have a pretty good 2B and leadoff hitter for a few years, and an ok one after that. We all hope he ages gracefully, but any player signed through their 36th or 37th birthdays is a risk.

And let's not forget what happened when MacPhail traded Tejada. Just where do we have a hole again?

Yes, let's use that argument. MacPhail traded Tejada for one player who filled a hole that had been there for many years (Scott), an All Star closer, and several other talented young players.

But, sure, let us focus on the fact that there's a temporary hole at shortstop.

[DrungoHazewood]

Well I've never made that argument.

Sorry, not suggesting that you did. That was more directed at Sports Guy, often thinks he's the victim of that strawman.

[Fan4Life]

Reimold and Wieters are more talented than Millar and Ramon.

Millar is the best defensive 1b'man we have. While you could try to make the argument the Reimold will out-produce Millar offensively. you have to take into account what you lose by putting Huff at 1B. Then you have the chemistry that Millar provides... :clap3: Can Reimold tell a joke like Kevin? You really need to look at all the aspects of the changes you're recommending..

[tywright]

Reimold and Wieters are more talented than Millar and Ramon.

More talented yes, but Reimold still needs some more experience in the minors.

[JTrea81]

Roberts is pretty likely to be an above-average or average second baseman for the next few years. Less likely after that. Signing him to a 4-5 year deal means you probably have a pretty good 2B and leadoff hitter for a few years, and an ok one after that. We all hope he ages gracefully, but any player signed through their 36th or 37th birthdays is a risk.

MacPhail traded Tejada for one player who filled a hole that had been there for many years (Scott), an All Star closer, and several other talented young players.

But, sure, let us focus on the fact that there's a temporary hole at shortstop.

Scott is the only one that has really come out of that trade, but I see your point. Still he's had a season to fix the SS problem and didn't do it. If Roberts is traded, then you'll have holes at SS and 2B with nobody in the organization to fill them. And those two positions are the hardest to find good hitters at. I would only extend Roberts for 4 years anyway and that should be long enough to get an internal option, whether it be Adams, Hoes or a draft pick. It's a lot easier to find just a SS than a SS and a 2B man that will contribute the way Roberts did to a competitive team in the next 4 years. We can't afford to have a weak bat at SS and at 2B...