What a bunch of sad-sack losers

[Frobby]

Its not semantics Frobby. This team was destined to be a bad team even at the beginning of the year and that has been proven out over time. Oh sure, we will now hear a littany of excuses as to why we have lost so much, e.g., the tried and true Orioles' fan "injuries" excuse.

To call 62-67 as being competitive or "non-embarrasing" is a frankly a farce IMO; it sounds like an apologist talking. I am sick and tired of fans rationalizing what is in fact a terrible team. A 50-50 chance of winning a game for "most of the season" (but not all) is NOT going to get it.

I am certainly not apologizing for this team. You know how frustrated I am with this perennial August/September nosedive. I agree 100% that it has to be taken into account when assessing the team.

I was merely explaining what I think the other poster meant when he said we played "competitive" baseball for 80% of the season. He didn't mean we were competing for the pennant. He meant that the games themselves were competitive.

So please don't interpret my post as agreeing with his overall position. After all, I started this thread. The title and my opening post set out my own position on the issue.

To be honest, I'd rather watch a team that played .425 baseball from April onwards, than a team that hovers around .500 for 3/4 of the season and then collapses like a house of cards every year. That would be a lot easier for me to accept.

[Guest rochester]

Especially with answers out there this off season that will cost money, but won't hamper the development of the system. I am talking about Tex, Burnett, Sabathia, Sheets, Manny to an extent. We are sick and tired of 11 straight seasons of poor play. Its time to turn it around. Buy some of these guys and add them to Roberts, Kakes, Weiters, Jones, and the young pitchers, and then we are heading somewhere. Expecting the fan base to keep on wiaitng on next year, EVERY year, is eventually going to push away even the most diehard of us all.

I think we take AM's philosophy on trades, which is good IMO - and sign all 3 P's (Burnett, Sabathia, Sheets) - I mean, at least one should be great and stay healthy. Add a healthy dose of Tex, leave out the Manny and there you go...:laughlol:

[Tony-OH]

I'm last guy to make excuses for the Orioles, but maybe people should realize that we don't have one starter from our original rotation. Our bullpen has lost Sherrill, Johnson, Albers, Bierd and Sarfate for significant amounts of the season and if that's not enough, we have Alfredo Simon starting a game for us tonight.

When this team was on all cylinders we were a slightly below .500 team. That wasn't too bad when most thought this team would be lucky to win 62 games.

Is this team painful to watch now? Sure. Is it annoying to watch this team make another September crash? Absolutely.

This pitching staff is decimated right now and that's a huge part of why this team is in a swoon. To me, it's not an excuse, but just the truth.

[Frobby]

I'm last guy to make excuses for the Orioles, but maybe people should realize that we don't have one starter from our original rotation. Our bullpen has lost Sherrill, Johnson, Albers, Bierd and Sarfate for significant amounts of the season and if that's not enough, we have Alfredo Simon starting a game for us tonight.

When this team was on all cylinders we were a slightly below .500 team. That wasn't too bad when most thought this team would be lucky to win 62 games.

Is this team painful to watch now? Sure. Is it annoying to watch this team make another September crash? Absolutely.

This pitching staff is decimated right now and that's a huge part of why this team is in a swoon. To me, it's not an excuse, but just the truth.

Tony, I agree with that. But it is also a fact that this team has scored 4 or fewer runs in 22 of the last 31 games. This from a team that was 3rd in the league in runs scored as of late August. That part isn't the pitchers' fault. We've now lost 3-2, 3-2, 1-0 and 4-2 in the last five games. Any one of those could have been won with a decent offensive performance. The pitching was very good in all four of those games.

[Sports Guy]

I'm last guy to make excuses for the Orioles, but maybe people should realize that we don't have one starter from our original rotation. Our bullpen has lost Sherrill, Johnson, Albers, Bierd and Sarfate for significant amounts of the season and if that's not enough, we have Alfredo Simon starting a game for us tonight.

When this team was on all cylinders we were a slightly below .500 team. That wasn't too bad when most thought this team would be lucky to win 62 games.

Is this team painful to watch now? Sure. Is it annoying to watch this team make another September crash? Absolutely.

This pitching staff is decimated right now and that's a huge part of why this team is in a swoon. To me, it's not an excuse, but just the truth.

This is all true...Of course, AM also didn't go get more pitching depth, like say Anthony Reyes, for us to have down the stretch. He didn't make any deadline deals. Perhaps had he made some trades, we could have had more depth and been in better shape?

BB caught some slack for asking, what has AM done since the Bedard deal...This is what he was talking about...Constantly trying to add talent into the organization and not being happy just because he made 2 very good trades last offseason.

If he knew he wasn't going to dip into AA, he should have seen this coming.

[Frobby]

This is all true...Of course, AM also didn't go get more pitching depth, like say Anthony Reyes, for us to have down the stretch. He didn't make any deadline deals. Perhaps had he made some trades, we could have had more depth and been in better shape?

BB caught some slack for asking, what has AM done since the Bedard deal...This is what he was talking about...Constantly trying to add talent into the organization and not being happy just because he made 2 very good trades last offseason.

If he knew he wasn't going to dip into AA, he should have seen this coming.

First, let's not forget that he actually went the opposite direction. He traded Chad Bradford, further weakening our bullpen depth. And as I've said before, if it turns out that the player to be named later is just some throw-in, and that this was just a salary dump, I'm going to be really ticked off about that.

But on the other hand, AM could not have foreseen the signficant number of injuries that have stacked up since the trading deadline -- Johnson, Guthrie, Cabrera, Sarfate. And he has brought in some outside help in the form of Bass (who has been fairly useful) and Simon.

Moreover, who was he going to trade to get more pitching depth?

I don't blame the pitching collapse on MacPhail, with the caveat above about Bradford.

[ChaosLex]

BB caught some slack for asking, what has AM done since the Bedard deal...This is what he was talking about...Constantly trying to add talent into the organization and not being happy just because he made 2 very good trades last offseason.

Speaking of adding talent, Reyes was pitching pretty darn well for Cleveland before his injury. :angryfire:

[NewMarketSean]

I'm last guy to make excuses for the Orioles, but maybe people should realize that we don't have one starter from our original rotation. Our bullpen has lost Sherrill, Johnson, Albers, Bierd and Sarfate for significant amounts of the season and if that's not enough, we have Alfredo Simon starting a game for us tonight.

When this team was on all cylinders we were a slightly below .500 team. That wasn't too bad when most thought this team would be lucky to win 62 games.

Is this team painful to watch now? Sure. Is it annoying to watch this team make another September crash? Absolutely.

This pitching staff is decimated right now and that's a huge part of why this team is in a swoon. To me, it's not an excuse, but just the truth.

How many years will injuries be the excuse? Yeah, we have had a lot of injuries, which in turn have hurt the team. OK. But when are they going to try to avoid that? When are they actually going to have a contingency plan?

Instead of calling up some talented prospects when the injuries started piling up, they signed someone off the scrap heap.

I echo what BB and SG have said. What has AM done since the Bedard trade? Very little, IMO.

[glenn__davis]

I echo what BB and SG have said. What has AM done since the Bedard trade? Very little, IMO.

I think it's virtually impossible to say what MacPhail has done since those trades. The most important things that he should be doing are things that won't make headlines. Shoring up minor league instruction, getting international scouting to at least a respectable level, improving the way the system, as a whole, is run. Those things are far, far more important than having a contingency plan in a year where we're not going to compete anyway.

Before the year, wasn't there a quote from MacPhail that 2008 "wasn't even on his radar screen"? And weren't most of the posters on this board very glad to read that? From what I can tell, he has lived up to that quote.

[Tony-OH]

How many years will injuries be the excuse? Yeah, we have had a lot of injuries, which in turn have hurt the team. OK. But when are they going to try to avoid that? When are they actually going to have a contingency plan?

Instead of calling up some talented prospects when the injuries started piling up, they signed someone off the scrap heap.

I echo what BB and SG have said. What has AM done since the Bedard trade? Very little, IMO.

And who should he have called up? The Bowie arms? Let me throw a little cold water on the Bowie pitchers argument. First, all of them had pitched a lot of innings and were on fumes by the end of the year. Two, besides Tillman, who is only 20-years old, none of these guys are going to be savior for this team in the rotation.. Hernandez may be able to make it as a starter but I'd be willing to bet he ends up a power back of the bullpen reliever. Bergesen had a great year, but he doesn't miss Double-A bats and he couldn't get double-A lefties out. Berken is too inconsistent and his velocity drops ioff pretty quickly suggesting he's a future reliever as well.

Ok, so where are the rest of these talented pitching prospects AM should have brought up?

Also, how do you suppose AM was going to acquire starting pitching depth. Major league starters are not available from the scrap heap.

Now, I can see the argument that AM should have been more active at the trade deadline, but since we don't know what was offered, I can't get too upset. Besides, we already went over the trade deadline and the need for what we had was not there at the trade deadline so it doesn't make sense to just make a bad trade just to say you are trading.

What I really want to see is the Orioles truly invest into the Dominican program and really get into the international scouting market more.

Our DSL, GCL, Bluefield, and Aberdeen teams really were devoid of impact prospects and that's because we have almost no true high side talent coming from our Dominican program and we don't have anyone of interest from anywhere else either.

We have one international scout in John Stockstill and only a few in the Dominican. We are being out scouted in the DR and although we now have the academy, the Orioles DSL team suggest it has certainly not made a difference.

[Sports Guy]

First, let's not forget that he actually went the opposite direction. He traded Chad Bradford, further weakening our bullpen depth. And as I've said before, if it turns out that the player to be named later is just some throw-in, and that this was just a salary dump, I'm going to be really ticked off about that.

But on the other hand, AM could not have foreseen the signficant number of injuries that have stacked up since the trading deadline -- Johnson, Guthrie, Cabrera, Sarfate. And he has brought in some outside help in the form of Bass (who has been fairly useful) and Simon.

Moreover, who was he going to trade to get more pitching depth?

I don't blame the pitching collapse on MacPhail, with the caveat above about Bradford.

I am not blaming it on him but he also didn't help it.

Where would this team have been this year with a stop gap second baseman, Gallagher, Ceda and Cedeno as opposed to BRob and the cast of characters we have had in the pen, at SS and rotation?

I think there is a good chance we could be better off, despite BRob's year.

I bring that up only as a "what if" scenario, not a knock against AM btw.

Either way, i do think AM could have done more and because he didn't, our lack of depth has hurt us.

Of course, the other side to that is we entered the 2008 season with good depth and it all got hurt....So, coming into the season, AM did his job...but during the season, he did not.

[Frobby]

And who should he have called up? The Bowie arms? Let me throw a little cold water on the Bowie pitchers argument. First, all of them had pitched a lot of innings and were on fumes by the end of the year. Two, besides Tillman, who is only 20-years old, none of these guys are going to be savior for this team in the rotation.. Hernandez may be able to make it as a starter but I'd be willing to bet he ends up a power back of the bullpen reliever. Bergesen had a great year, but he doesn't miss Double-A bats and he couldn't get double-A lefties out. Berken is too inconsistent and his velocity drops ioff pretty quickly suggesting he's a future reliever as well.

Ok, so where are the rest of these talented pitching prospects AM should have brought up?

Also, how do you suppose AM was going to acquire starting pitching depth. Major league starters are not available from the scrap heap.

Now, I can see the argument that AM should have been more active at the trade deadline, but since we don't know what was offered, I can't get too upset. Besides, we already went over the trade deadline and the need for what we had was not there at the trade deadline so it doesn't make sense to just make a bad trade just to say you are trading.

What I really want to see is the Orioles truly invest into the Dominican program and really get into the international scouting market more.

Our DSL, GCL, Bluefield, and Aberdeen teams really were devoid of impact prospects and that's because we have almost no true high side talent coming from our Dominican program and we don't have anyone of interest from anywhere else either.

We have one international scout in John Stockstill and only a few in the Dominican. We are being out scouted in the DR and although we now have the academy, the Orioles DSL team suggest it has certainly not made a difference.

I agree with everything you said in this post. The only thing I will say is that it may take more than a year for the Dominican academy to have any kind of an impact. The O's simply aren't a known "brand name" down there and it may take some ground work before we start getting our fair share of the talent. To me, the failure to address that until MacPhail got here is the biggest screw-up of the whole Beattie/Flanagan/Duquette regime.

[wildcard]

I am not blaming it on him but he also didn't help it.

Where would this team have been this year with a stop gap second baseman, Gallagher, Ceda and Cedeno as opposed to BRob and the cast of characters we have had in the pen, at SS and rotation?

I think there is a good chance we could be better off, despite BRob's year.

I can't agree with this. BRob's year farther overweighs anything that these guys did this year.

Gallagher was bad after coming to the AL.

Ceda had a nice year as AA but he maybe two years away and a reliever do not come close to the value of BRob. Besides, I don't think Hendry ever included him in the deal.

Cedeno is a younger Castro. He has just been a utility guy who could not break into the Cubs lineup. I am not saying I would like to see what he could do for the O's at SS but his value is so much below B Rob it is not in the same time zone.

Veal who was the other guy reportedly in the deal continued to be somewhat wild.

[Tony-OH]

I agree with everything you said in this post. The only thing I will say is that it may take more than a year for the Dominican academy to have any kind of an impact. The O's simply aren't a known "brand name" down there and it may take some ground work before we start getting our fair share of the talent. To me, the failure to address that until MacPhail got here is the biggest screw-up of the whole Beattie/Flanagan/Duquette regime.

I was told straight out that the Orioles are out-scouted down there. $$$$ talk down there and you to be willing to dish some out for the top guys to get some return. Also, I was told most teams employ many more full-time scouts in the DR. It's not just the name, it's the effort along with $$$ that will turn things around in my opinion.

[Sports Guy]

I think it's virtually impossible to say what MacPhail has done since those trades. The most important things that he should be doing are things that won't make headlines. Shoring up minor league instruction, getting international scouting to at least a respectable level, improving the way the system, as a whole, is run. Those things are far, far more important than having a contingency plan in a year where we're not going to compete anyway.

Before the year, wasn't there a quote from MacPhail that 2008 "wasn't even on his radar screen"? And weren't most of the posters on this board very glad to read that? From what I can tell, he has lived up to that quote.

Its great that he has done these things....But this stuff will not be helping us for probably at least 5 more years....He has to do more now.

Its not like this is a one man show...He has a ton of people around him. He has a lot of assistants...More can be done.