State of the System: Middle Infield - Grade C+

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, hoosiers said:

Have to love an analysis that says Elias should "address this through the draft" when he just spent the 30th overall pick in the 2020 draft on an SEC shortstop.  There is much more minor league talent in the system at SS/2B than in the OF - frankly, IMO, it's not close.

We do not have major league long term solutions at these positions and that is where the middle infield should be down-graded, but we have plenty of good drafted talent there in the minors.

I think part of the issue is that the ones that we have seen play in the minors are not a lock to stay at short.

[Sports Guy]

13 hours ago, hoosiers said:

Have to love an analysis that says Elias should "address this through the draft" when he just spent the 30th overall pick in the 2020 draft on an SEC shortstop.  There is much more minor league talent in the system at SS/2B than in the OF - frankly, IMO, it's not close.

We do not have major league long term solutions at these positions and that is where the middle infield should be down-graded, but we have plenty of good drafted talent there in the minors.

More talent in the MI vs OF?  Interesting thought.

Kjerstad has the highest ceiling of any of the players imo.  The only one close to Gunnar and he likely (although not definitely) will end up at third.

I would put the upside of Diaz ahead of all except Gunnar (again if he stays) and maybe Westburg, assuming he stays at SS. We don’t really know what we have in Westburg yet.  If he continues how he played in the SEC, he will be lucky to get past AA.  He may be he biggest wild card in our organization, outside of any of the young Intl guys that could develop.  

I do agree that once you get past Kjerstad and Diaz, that the MI talent depth is better.  The only player beyond those 2 that I think is “exciting” is Haskin and he has a ways to go in his development.  Like Westburg, he is a big wild card who perhaps would have gone much higher if they played a college season this year.  

[hoosiers]

Westburg was taken 30th overall - that's end of the first round.  Westburg, Gunnar, Hall - all early picks, plus Servideo, Hernaiz, Ortiz, Vavra and then a lower tier of McCoy, Bannon and others like Grenier.

Considering the OF represents three positions and the middle infield two, I think our prospect coverage in the middle infield - even if you push Gunnar to 3B - is superior to the OF.

Again, here like other positions, if we add a normal representation of international prospects in a couple of years, our quality and depth in the middle infield becomes a strength.

[LookinUp]

I think the grade is generous. I liked Hernaiz before Covid. Westburg and Vavra are nice additions, but don't exactly profile as first division starters. This is a part of the organization that basically profiles as "could have some talent, but nothing special is apparent yet." That's a C- at best for me, and that's if you like Vavra, Westburg and Hernaiz beyond what their production has shown.

[BohKnowsBmore]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:24 PM, hoosiers said:

Have to love an analysis that says Elias should "address this through the draft" when he just spent the 30th overall pick in the 2020 draft on an SEC shortstop.  There is much more minor league talent in the system at SS/2B than in the OF - frankly, IMO, it's not close.

We do not have major league long term solutions at these positions and that is where the middle infield should be down-graded, but we have plenty of good drafted talent there in the minors.

He's definitely taken quite a few SS who may have to move to 3B/2B in the last two drafts. Gunnar Henderson, Joseph Ortiz, and Darell Hernaiz in 2019. Then Westburg and Servideo in 2020.

[weams]

On 10/5/2020 at 10:14 PM, BohKnowsBmore said:

He's definitely taken quite a few SS who may have to move to 3B/2B in the last two drafts. Gunnar Henderson, Joseph Ortiz, and Darell Hernaiz in 2019. Then Westburg and Servideo in 2020.

Why do any of them need to move?

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, weams said:

Why do any of them need to move?

Why isn't Mountcastle still playing short?

[weams]

17 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why isn't Mountcastle still playing short?

Does not have a shortstop arm.

[weams]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why isn't Mountcastle still playing short?

Not great footwork

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

Does not have a shortstop arm.

 

3 minutes ago, weams said:

Not great footwork

And this will be true of some of the next group as well.

[DrungoHazewood]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:45 PM, wildcard said:

He is equal to or better than Alberto at 2nd defensively and he is a better hitter.  Better power.  791 OPS deserves more opportunity.  And Valaika will be cheaper than Alberto.   Alberto has has two seasons to show he can hit righties and has not.  Time to give someone else a chance.  Valaika is next in line.

I'm sure I've pointed this out six or eight times, but Alberto and Valaika are the same age and Alberto has an 81 OPS+, Valaika a 72.  The only way you can peg Valaika as definitively a better hitter is if you ignore everything before 2020, when Valaika had an unacceptable .656 OPS in Colorado.

[DrungoHazewood]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:07 PM, LookinUp said:

I think the grade is generous. I liked Hernaiz before Covid. Westburg and Vavra are nice additions, but don't exactly profile as first division starters. This is a part of the organization that basically profiles as "could have some talent, but nothing special is apparent yet." That's a C- at best for me, and that's if you like Vavra, Westburg and Hernaiz beyond what their production has shown.

I think this entire series is based on ceiling without any real thought given to likelihood of reaching that ceiling.  So an average team at an average position will be something like a B or B+.  But even on that scale giving the Orioles a C+ here is pretty generous since no one in the organization is terribly likely to be playing middle infield for the Orioles in the majors in three years.

[Just Regular]

Middle infield defense feels like one of those aspects of the game where the deltas between what is and isn't behind the curtain are bigger.

It'll be magnificent if Henderson develops as a solid or plus SS two-way player, and I imagine the coaches will have a lot to do with it.  Bobby Dickerson got a shoutout on last night's Padres-Dodgers telecast for tightening Tatis's screws as it was also recollected that he was Manny's infield guy back in the day.

My memory is the knock on Nolan Arenado coming up was that he was a bad 3B and well, here we are.

My armchair guess is Servideo is the only one with real MLB SS game and it's 80% likely he won't hit enough (better than Grenier's 95%-some).  I'll be bummed if two early Rutschman runs in 2022-2023 get hindered trying to see if someone in the org now can grow into like a 1.5 WAR shortstop so the payroll can stay well south of $75M.

[BohKnowsBmore]

On 10/5/2020 at 10:14 PM, BohKnowsBmore said:

He's definitely taken quite a few SS who may have to move to 3B/2B in the last two drafts. Gunnar Henderson, Joseph Ortiz, and Darell Hernaiz in 2019. Then Westburg and Servideo in 2020.

 

7 hours ago, weams said:

Why do any of them need to move?

Just seems to be a somewhat common note in draft profiles for some (not necessarily all) of them. To be clear, I think this seems like a generally good approach to the draft on offense, taking SS/CF/C that can hit and if they need to slide down the defensive spectrum, so be it.

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, BohKnowsBmore said:

 

Just seems to be a somewhat common note in draft profiles for some (not necessarily all) of them. To be clear, I think this seems like a generally good approach to the draft on offense, taking SS/CF/C that can hit and if they need to slide down the defensive spectrum, so be it.

There is also just the fact that the better overall infield prospects are predominantly playing shortstop when drafted.

Not a lot of HS second basemen being looked at as viable professional prospects.