The Catching Situation

[interloper]

18 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The issue is if you give up on Sisco, then you have to DFA him but the 40-man roster is full. The only other choice would be to DFA Valaika who might make it through waivers and still be able to to be kept in the organization. With Martin doing so well in the alternate camp, the time may have passed for needing Valiaka, especially if the organization wants to give Urias this year to see what he can do.

Personally, I'm a defense first guy at catcher unless the stick is special, and if Sisco is not going to hit, he's definitely not going to help the team.

I'd rather the pitchers have a good guy to throw to even if I don't think Wynns or Ciuffo are anything more than back ups.

They're definitely not, but Sisco is proving he can't even really hack it in a backup role either. Like you said, the guy has to hit and he's just whiffing an incredible amount right now. Not even getting his usual walks either. It's hard to watch. 

[HowAboutThat]

29 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The issue is if you give up on Sisco, then you have to DFA him but the 40-man roster is full. The only other choice would be to DFA Valaika who might make it through waivers and still be able to to be kept in the organization. With Martin doing so well in the alternate camp, the time may have passed for needing Valiaka, especially if the organization wants to give Urias this year to see what he can do.

Personally, I'm a defense first guy at catcher unless the stick is special, and if Sisco is not going to hit, he's definitely not going to help the team.

I'd rather the pitchers have a good guy to throw to even if I don't think Wynns or Ciuffo are anything more than back ups.

I don’t understand the opposition to the risk Sisco might be off waivers. To be honest he would probably be claimed, even though he’s lousy, because catchers are in demand, even bad ones. On the other hand, he is definitely a bad one and the guys on the squad both offer better defense.

So why care whether he is claimed?

his walk rate is going to go down as his strikeout rate goes up, and we are already seeing that. He’s just another one of those second round draft picks that didn’t amount to anything.

He has a career .-3 fwar, and he is certainly not going to cause Wailing and gnashing of teeth if somebody else takes a flyer on him, so dump him and bring up the next guy....quickly.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Philip

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

42 minutes ago, interloper said:

They're definitely not, but Sisco is proving he can't even really hack it in a backup role either. Like you said, the guy has to hit and he's just whiffing an incredible amount right now. Not even getting his usual walks either. It's hard to watch. 

I think Chance has to be given a little more time than the 20 plate appearances he's had this year. But yeah it's really bad for Chance right now and he has to show some signs of life soon. 

[jabba72]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

They should send Means down.  This team won't go anywhere with him on it.

They might yet do something with Means if he keeps pitching well. 

[Frobby]

The conclusions people are drawing about Sisco based on 20 plate appearances boggle my mind.   Take a deep breath.    If he hasn’t gotten on track by mid-late May, let’s talk.  20 PA is nothing.   

[Legend_Of_Joey]

37 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The conclusions people are drawing about Sisco based on 20 plate appearances boggle my mind.   Take a deep breath.    If he hasn’t gotten on track by mid-late May, let’s talk.  20 PA is nothing.   

Or add in the end of last season and Spring Training. 34 strike outs in 97 at bats. 

[HowAboutThat]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

The conclusions people are drawing about Sisco based on 20 plate appearances boggle my mind.   Take a deep breath.    If he hasn’t gotten on track by mid-late May, let’s talk.  20 PA is nothing.   

That’s a bit of a strawman, because he’s not much different than he always has been. He’s always been terrible on defense, had a very high strike out rate, but was able to work a walk, and block pitches better than Severino.

Now he’s not walking and he’s apparently not blocking pitches. And his strike out rate will of course improve, but right now it’s 50%, and 50% is not good.And his strike out rate will of course improve, but right now it’s 50%, and 50% is not good.

if these last 20 at bats were an anomaly, then yes you would have a point, but they really aren’t.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Philip

[Frobby]

46 minutes ago, Philip said:

That’s a bit of a strawman, because he’s not much different than he always has been. He’s always been terrible on defense, had a very high strike out rate, but was able to work a walk, and block pitches better than Severino.

Now he’s not walking and he’s apparently not blocking pitches. And his strike out rate will of course improve, but right now it’s 50%, and 50% is not good.And his strike out rate will of course improve, but right now it’s 50%, and 50% is not good.

if these last 20 at bats were an anomaly, then yes you would have a point, but they really aren’t.

He’s a guy who’s had an OPS of .729 and .741 the last two years.   So I say the 20 PA are an anomaly. Not even an anomaly, it’s the kind of hiccup that goes largely unnoticed during the season but gets blown all out of proportion when it happens in the first 20 PA of the year.   

I’m not saying there should be no concern.   Sisco has to hit decently to be worthwhile keeping on the roster.    But you don’t draw conclusions based on 20 PA.   Not even when the player didn’t hit well in spring training.   Like I said, let me know how he’s doing in mid- to late May.    
 

[Frobby]

By the way, the team has a 3.10 ERA this year when Sisco catches, and he’s 3 for 3 throwing out runners.    If we’re going to draw absurd conclusions based on a handful of games, how about taking these facts into the equation?    

[HowAboutThat]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

By the way, the team has a 3.10 ERA this year when Sisco catches, and he’s 3 for 3 throwing out runners.    If we’re going to draw absurd conclusions based on a handful of games, how about taking these facts into the equation?    

His career CS rate is exactly 33%( 24 of 72) but that’s due entirely to 13 of 29 in 2018, and Jon Shepard had a post at the time about how his pitchers were skewing those numbers.

meanwhile, in 4+ seasons he has amassed l, among other thing, a minus 19 DRS, and minus 16.4 FRM which is below average.

His bad defense is certainly not an anomaly.

Whether his bad hitting improves remains to be seen, but I doubt it, and even if he gets back to his career 89WRC, it doesn’t compensate for his defense.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Philip

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Philip said:

His career CS rate is exactly 33%( 24 of 72) but that’s due entirely to 13 of 29 in 2018, and Jon Shepard had a post at the time about how his pitchers were skewing those numbers.

meanwhile, in 4+ seasons he has amassed l, among other thing, a minus 19 DRS, and minus 16.4 FRM which is below average.

His bad defense is certainly not an anomaly.

Whether his bad hitting improves remains to be seen, but I doubt it, and even if he gets back to his career 89WRC, it doesn’t compensate for his defense.

On what basis are you saying his hitting won’t improve?   Honestly, that’s the craziest thing you’ve ever said on this website.   

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

On what basis are you saying his hitting won’t improve?   Honestly, that’s the craziest thing you’ve ever said on this website.   

No, I’ve probably said crazier.

I didn’t say it wouldn’t improve, I said I doubt it will, and i said that even if it gets back to his career 89 WRC, it won’t compensate for his defense.

That’s what I said.

And that’s not crazy.

 

[Sports Guy]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

On what basis are you saying his hitting won’t improve?   Honestly, that’s the craziest thing you’ve ever said on this website.   

I don’t think it’s the craziest but all of your replies here are spot on.  It’s an absurd argument.  
 

At some point, people will stop blowing hot or cold starts to the season out of proportion. (For both players and teams)

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, Philip said:

No, I’ve probably said crazier.

I didn’t say it wouldn’t improve, I said I doubt it will, and i said that even if it gets back to his career 89 WRC, it won’t compensate for his defense.

That’s what I said.

And that’s not crazy.

 

It’s crazy to doubt that he’ll improve on the .150/.150/.150 line he’s amassed in 20 PA, with a 50% K rate and no walks.   There should  be no doubt at all that he will.   20 PA is nothing.   

Now, as to your point that if he improves to his career wRC+ of 89, he’s still not worth keeping on the roster, there I agree with you.  89 wRC+ is about average for a catcher, and not good enough for a catcher who is well below average defensively.    

At the same time, please realize that Sisco has had a wRC+ of 97 and 113 the last two seasons.  I expect him to be in that range if given sufficient at bats.   If he isn’t, I certainly will have no trouble with a decision to demote him.    But not based on 20 PA.   
 

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

It’s crazy to doubt that he’ll improve on the .150/.150/.150 line he’s amassed in 20 PA, with a 50% K rate and no walks.   There should  be no doubt at all that he will.   20 PA is nothing.   

Now, as to your point that if he improves to his career wRC+ of 89, he’s still not worth keeping on the roster, there I agree with you.  89 wRC+ is about average for a catcher, and not good enough for a catcher who is well below average defensively.    

At the same time, please realize that Sisco has had a wRC+ of 97 and 113 the last two seasons.  I expect him to be in that range if given sufficient at bats.   If he isn’t, I certainly will have no trouble with a decision to demote him.    But not based on 20 PA.   
 

How many at bats are sufficient? When you’re basically hitting zero, it’s impossible to not improve, I’m not expecting him to improve meaningfully, and as I said and you agreed, even if he returned to his career norms, that won’t be sufficient. But back to the question. How many at bats is a sufficient number for you to agree that this is what he is? Remember he’s not even at his own career norms, which you yourself have admitted are not sufficient. So in order to be worth keeping despite his defense, he would have to do better than his career, And I don’t see that happening. Remember, true change is not incremental, it is transformative.

I Don’t really care about his offense, as long as his defense is good, that’s why I’m happy to see one of the other guys who has a reputation for better defense.