Should we Trade John Means?

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

The consensus will start to turn to his rebuild will not work. That includes the fans, the media and then  ownership.   It happened to MacPhail in Baltimore where he was gone after 4+ years.  In Philly he was gone after 5 years.   It has happened at different places around MLB.   A GM only gets so long to begin winning.

Elias in not at the point yet.  But he is probably one more losing season away from the pitchforks coming out.   He has to show progress in 2022.

The media doesn't put any pressure on the team.  Hasn't for years.  Half the media is owned by the team.

Ownership?  We haven't seen anything out of the owners that shows that they are in any sort of a rush to field a competitive team.

Fans?  Those poor sods that are left aren't going to suddenly get up and quit. 

Edit- Oh I forgot to add a bit about Andy.

You are aware that he left the O's right?  Peter wanted him to stay on.  He was in no way showed the door.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Il BuonO said:

Not that tough. Should be pretty clear to most people Scherzer is in a different class than Means. He’s definitely a better bet to help a team win a WS. 

But not every team is willing to take on the type of commitment, especially if he demands an extension.

[Il BuonO]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It is very dependent on what the other team wants and can afford.

Isn’t that the case with any trade? I mean, no team goes after a player they don’t want. I suppose there are times when teams figuratively get out over their skis with regards to affordability, but it’s usually within reason or can at least be rationalized as such. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Il BuonO said:

Isn’t that the case with any trade? I mean, no team goes after a player they don’t want. I suppose there are times when teams figuratively get out over their skis with regards to affordability, but it’s usually within reason or can at least be rationalized as such. 

Sure but I think it's a lot more stark in this case.  The money owed is so very different and one party has no trade protection.

It isn't apples to oranges but it's Honeycrisps to Ganny Smiths.

[Il BuonO]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But not every team is willing to take on the type of commitment, especially if he demands an extension.

I wasn’t talking about the commitment, purely comparing the players. To me it’s not close. And if a team makes adjustments to whom they target based on what the price is then they compromise the end goal. Maybe there isn’t much of a choice and I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, but the quality of the player is what I see as the biggest driver. 

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Not that tough. Should be pretty clear to most people Scherzer is in a different class than Means. He’s definitely a better bet to help a team win a WS. 

Yea but Means is good and gives you several years of control.  Some teams may prefer that but I think that’s why Means could also be a better bet to be dealt in the offseason, if at all.

[Il BuonO]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea but Means is good and gives you several years of control.  Some teams may prefer that but I think that’s why Means could also be a better bet to be dealt in the offseason, if at all.

I agree the off season is more likely. I hope he finishes strong and it becomes a real consideration.

[wildcard]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The media doesn't put any pressure on the team.  Hasn't for years.  Half the media is owned by the team.

Ownership?  We haven't seen anything out of the owners that shows that they are in any sort of a rush to field a competitive team.

Fans?  Those poor sods that are left aren't going to suddenly get up and quit. 

Edit- Oh I forgot to add a bit about Andy.

You are aware that he left the O's right?  Peter wanted him to stay on.  He was in no way showed the door.

The Media includes national media which the O's do not control.

Ownership expects attendance to improve which comes with winning. When that does not happen owners beginning to question why?  The media and friends of the owners start being more influential than the GM.

Andy left because Ownership stopped listening to him. Losing will do that to a GM.

As I said Elias is not in this situation yet.   But he has to begin winning next season.  That is why trading Means  and Mancini for players that will help in 2024 may be too late for Elias.

 

[Camden_yardbird]

My feeling is this, when the Orioles pass this trade deadline a switch needs to be flipped.  This is it.  Next off season needs to be about adding pieces to a competitive team not possibly trading away players like Means.

You add pieces and come next years trade deadline if what you added doesn't get you into the lower level of contention then you consider trades.

At some point though the Orioles need to start investing in competition, not a rebuild.  This team can't be a blank slate devoid of veteran leadership when Hall, Rodriguez, AR and the lot start to come up.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

The Media includes national media which the O's do not control.

Ownership expects attendance to improve which comes with winning. When that does not happen owners beginning to question why?  The media and friends of the owners start being more influential than the GM.

Andy left because Ownership stopped listening to him. Losing will do that to a GM.

As I said Elias is not in this situation yet.   But he has to begin winning next season.  That is why trading Means  and Mancini for players that will help in 2024 may be too late for Elias.

 

Yes the National media isn't controlled by the O's.  I never said otherwise.  They also tend to ignore the Orioles.  They aren't about to devote a lot of time and energy into writing pieces about Elias' performance that their audience won't care about.

You don't know what ownership expects, none of us do. 

You are changing your story on Andy and you have no evidence to support this claim after I debunked your last claim.

All Elias has to do to keep his job is to keep ownership happy.  We don't know what that entails. 

[Frobby]

20 minutes ago, wildcard said:

The consensus will start to turn to his rebuild will not work. That includes the fans, the media and then  ownership.   It happened to MacPhail in Baltimore where he was gone after 4+ years.  In Philly he was gone after 5 years.   It has happened at different places around MLB.   A GM only gets so long to begin winning.

Elias in not at the point yet.  But he is probably one more losing season away from the pitchforks coming out.   He has to show progress in 2022.

I agree with your point here.   I expect two things are true about the Angelos brothers:

1.  They hired Elias with the knowledge that this was a long term rebuild, not a quick fix.  

2.  Their patience isn’t, and shouldn’t be, infinite.   

I think three years of pretty terrible baseball, followed by significant progress, was probably a reasonable expectation.    See: Astros.   If there are no signs of significant progress next year, I think Elias could be in trouble with ownership.   

That said, I wouldn’t use MacPhail’s time in Baltimore as an example.   Angelos wanted him back; MacPhail chose to leave.   At least, that’s how it was portrayed in the media.  
 

 

[Moose Milligan]

The standard answer is....of course it depends on what the return is.

Will the real John Means please stand up?  I don't think we know who that is yet.  2019, made the AS Team as the token Oriole.  Had a good year overall but a spotty 2nd half.  Last year was a weird year for everyone and a hard year for him as he lost his father.  Came back in September, pitched well.  

Pitched excellent to start this season, missed time with an injury.  People (including me) are wondering if spider tack had anything to do with his success.

It's hard to gauge who he really is based off his complete body of work as there have been interruptions throughout.  

I'd be hesitant to move him because I think he can be a good piece for us.  He's probably a 2nd or 3rd starter, ideally a 3rd.  If G-Rod and Hall pan out and are top of the rotation guys, then Means is #3 and you've got a good thing going.  

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes the National media isn't controlled by the O's.  I never said otherwise.  They also tend to ignore the Orioles.  They aren't about to devote a lot of time and energy into writing pieces about Elias' performance that their audience won't care about.

You don't know what ownership expects, none of us do. 

You are changing your story on Andy and you have no evidence to support this claim after I debunked your last claim.

All Elias has to do to keep his job is to keep ownership happy.  We don't know what that entails. 

Don't kid yourself.  Rosenthal and Law will raise the questions about when the O's will start winning.  How long will the rebuild be able to continue to lose.   And others will follow their lead.    As I said every GM only get so long to show progress before the questions of his approach come.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Don't kid yourself.  Rosenthal and Law will raise the questions about when the O's will start winning.  How long will the rebuild be able to continue to lose.   And others will follow their lead.    As I said every GM only get so long to show progress before the questions of his approach come.

I think you are incorrect about how much anyone outside of Baltimore cares about the Orioles.

Might a guy do a short piece about the O's?  Sure.  But it's going to be a throwaway column on a slow news day.

[Il BuonO]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'd be hesitant to move him because I think he can be a good piece for us.  He's probably a 2nd or 3rd starter, ideally a 3rd.  If G-Rod and Hall pan out and are top of the rotation guys, then Means is #3 and you've got a good thing going.  

My OP from the Means thread....

I’m not convinced Means is anything more than a mid to back of the rotation guy, but that’s good on this team.