Hall of Fame 2009

[Ruzious]

Rickey and Blyleven should be locks. But to me, the Hawk is the 3rd guy that belongs in there. Knee problems slowed him down, but before they did - he was probably the best all-around player in the game for several years. And he played the game the way you want your kids (or nephews, in my case) to play - with guts and aggression.

I'll be happy if Rice doesn't make it - a 1 dimensional player who was the 3rd best OFer on his team when Fred Lynn was healthy. Raines I considered strongly, but he was never an MVP candidate type player. Same with Trammell. They're in the HO most excellent but not HOF. I think Morris is going to get a lot of votes for his big game performances. McGwire's congressional testimony pretty much sealed his fate - for a few years, anyway. He ain't getting in, and I'm fine with that.

[mweb]

All sarcasm aside () I am willing to file this under "fair points".

I don't think equipment is fair to count, though, because that would be the slippery-slope to end all slippery-slopes.

Purposefully taking a substance that is not only unhealthy, but illegal, for the express purpose of increasing muscle mass, or recovery time, or anything else is a different situation.

Corked bats are ok then? Doctoring baseballs?

Again, I think a lot, maybe a third or more of the players in the Hall would have to be taken out of the HOF based on your qualifications.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Corked bats are ok then? Doctoring baseballs?

Again, I think a lot, maybe a third or more of the players in the Hall would have to be taken out of the HOF based on your qualifications.

A corked bat or doctored baseball breaks the rules of the game. Gambling breaks the rules of the game. Steroids breaks the laws of this country, and the rules of the game (for a few years now).

That's where the difference comes in.

[Satyr3206]

Or maybe he just got older and stole less bases?

The finger pointing in this whole steroid mess is ridiculous.

Nobody knows when people started, so why try to guess?

If Bonds doesn't get in on his first try, I may literally go postal on every member of the BBWAA. Seriously. Dude was the greatest player I ever saw play baseball, if he doesn't get in, argh, I'm already getting myself upset.

It's hard to steal bases when your head is the size of Jupiter.

[mweb]

A corked bat or doctored baseball breaks the rules of the game. Gambling breaks the rules of the game. Steroids breaks the laws of this country, and the rules of the game (for a few years now).

That's where the difference comes in.

Ok, so now we're probably up to at least half of the players in the HOF that need to be taken out.

If breaking laws of this country is part of the equation, should we also elimate anyone who's taken illegal drugs(not PED's)?

[Migrant Redbird]

Ok, so now we're probably up to at least half of the players in the HOF that need to be taken out.

At least. Cheating has always been an honored part of baseball, as long as it doesn't involve associating with known gamblers.

[Satyr3206]

Ok, so now we're probably up to at least half of the players in the HOF that need to be taken out.

If breaking laws of this country is part of the equation, should we also elimate anyone who's taken illegal drugs(not PED's)?

Just my opinion but the Hall of Fame is for great baseball players first and foremost. However, I couldn't bring myself to vote for any player that used steroids. Mainly because that affects the performance on the field and therefore the records that many players achieved legally.

Pete Rose and Gambling are a different story. Do you realize that many Hall of Fame players were accused of gambling during their careers including Ty Cobb? The attitude and legality about gambling have changed significantly since the Black Sox days. And Rose never bet AGAINST his own team. I think that is the most defining issue about Rose. But I still wouldn't vote for him because he lied about it for so long. At least stand up and tell the truth.

I'm not saying everyone in the Hall has to be a Saint or Boy Scout, because they're not, but there are rules for a reason.

[mweb]

Just my opinion but the Hall of Fame is for great baseball players first and foremost. However, I couldn't bring myself to vote for any player that used steroids. Mainly because that affects the performance on the field and therefore the records that many players achieved legally.

Pete Rose and Gambling are a different story. Do you realize that many Hall of Fame players were accused of gambling during their careers including Ty Cobb? The attitude and legality about gambling have changed significantly since the Black Sox days. And Rose never bet AGAINST his own team. I think that is the most defining issue about Rose. But I still wouldn't vote for him because he lied about it for so long. At least stand up and tell the truth.

I'm not saying everyone in the Hall has to be a Saint or Boy Scout, because they're not, but there are rules for a reason.

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. As I said though, just know that as long as you're also including uppers, older forms of steroids and things trying to bring out the same result, corking, doctoring balls, etc, that most players in the HOF probably don't meet your standards. That includes many that you likely think have done it the right way.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Ok, so now we're probably up to at least half of the players in the HOF that need to be taken out.

If breaking laws of this country is part of the equation, should we also elimate anyone who's taken illegal drugs(not PED's)?

Find a list.

[Satyr3206]

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. As I said though, just know that as long as you're also including uppers, older forms of steroids and things trying to bring out the same result, corking, doctoring balls, etc, that most players in the HOF probably don't meet your standards. That includes many that you likely think have done it the right way.

You're probably right, there are some players that cheated and it never came out. I don't think that makes it right. I don't mind players trying to get an edge, but when it comes to altering your body through chemicals to increase your ability, that's a line I don't think should be crossed. Doing uppers, or drinking, or other drugs, don't alter your natural ability.

[mweb]

Find a list.

A list of what?

[mweb]

You're probably right, there are some players that cheated and it never came out. I don't think that makes it right. I don't mind players trying to get an edge, but when it comes to altering your body through chemicals to increase your ability, that's a line I don't think should be crossed. Doing uppers, or drinking, or other drugs, don't alter your natural ability.

Players taking "greenies" does alter their natural ability on a day to day basis, that's why players have taken them for so long.

BTW..."Ruth's 714 home run record lacks the spit-shined purity his backers trumpet. The Sultan of Swat made his bones playing against only a select segment of the population because of the ban on players whose skin color ran brown to black. Ruth never had to hit against Negro League greats Satchel Paige or Lefty Mathis to amass the magic 714. Yet no asterisk for institutionalized racism mars the Babe's marks. Ruth also was a habitual user of a banned substance that was deemed unambiguously illegal by the federal government--a drug Ruth believed enhanced his performance: alcohol. Ruth was a star during the roaring prohibition 1920s, and as teammate Joe Dugan said, "Babe would go day and night, broads and booze."

But Ruth didn't just stop at the watering hole to find an edge. According to The Baseball Hall of Shame's Warped Record Book, by Bruce Nash, Allan Zullo and Bob Smith, the Bambino fell ill one year attempting to inject himself with extract from a sheep's testes. This effort by more than a few athletes of his era to seek the healing and strengthening properties of testosterone prefigured the craze for steroids.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060522/zirin

Then there's also reason to believe Hank Aaron used steroids at the towards the end of his career.

[BaltimoreTerp]

A list of what?

A list of people who we know have taken illegal drugs and are or will be in the Hall of Fame.

I'll even start: Tim Raines

[Satyr3206]

Players taking "greenies" does alter their natural ability on a day to day basis, that's why players have taken them for so long.

BTW..."Ruth's 714 home run record lacks the spit-shined purity his backers trumpet. The Sultan of Swat made his bones playing against only a select segment of the population because of the ban on players whose skin color ran brown to black. Ruth never had to hit against Negro League greats Satchel Paige or Lefty Mathis to amass the magic 714. Yet no asterisk for institutionalized racism mars the Babe's marks. Ruth also was a habitual user of a banned substance that was deemed unambiguously illegal by the federal government--a drug Ruth believed enhanced his performance: alcohol. Ruth was a star during the roaring prohibition 1920s, and as teammate Joe Dugan said, "Babe would go day and night, broads and booze."

But Ruth didn't just stop at the watering hole to find an edge. According to The Baseball Hall of Shame's Warped Record Book, by Bruce Nash, Allan Zullo and Bob Smith, the Bambino fell ill one year attempting to inject himself with extract from a sheep's testes. This effort by more than a few athletes of his era to seek the healing and strengthening properties of testosterone prefigured the craze for steroids.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060522/zirin

Then there's also reason to believe Hank Aaron used steroids at the towards the end of his career.

Greenies, or uppers, make you high strung. More energetic. While some people might find this helpful, I guess, it seems it would make it harder to do some things baseball related, like hit a change up. And greenies don't increase muscle mass or recuperative powers.

I've read a lot about Babe Ruth and I don't recall hearing about the testosterone injection. I would be interested to see an offer of proof or a reliable source.

As for the racial issue there is nothing that can be done about that now. To look at it in that light is revisionist history. Also Ruth barnstormed in most off seasons and did very well against Paige, Gibson, and other Negro League players. From everything that I have read they had a mutual respect for each other. A good book about Ruth touches on the subject, Babe Ruth, the Legend comes to life.

[mweb]

Greenies, or uppers, make you high strung. More energetic. While some people might find this helpful, I guess, it seems it would make it harder to do some things baseball related, like hit a change up. And greenies don't increase muscle mass or recuperative powers.

I've read a lot about Babe Ruth and I don't recall hearing about the testosterone injection. I would be interested to see an offer of proof or a reliable source.

As for the racial issue there is nothing that can be done about that now. To look at it in that light is revisionist history. Also Ruth barnstormed in most off seasons and did very well against Paige, Gibson, and other Negro League players. From everything that I have read they had a mutual respect for each other. A good book about Ruth touches on the subject, Babe Ruth, the Legend comes to life.

Greenies were extremely common in baseball, so obviously most feel they're helpful. Their purpose is to keep players from going into a lull that a long season would typically produce without help.

I didn't mean to bring race into the equation.