O’s record in position player starts

[owknows]

8 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Not to the 2021 Frazier.

The point being made was that the Orioles already had several players capable of performing at levels which would exceed Frazier's best years. Raising the question... why inhibit their playing time by gambling that Frazier himself can exceed Frazier's best years.

[Number5]

8 minutes ago, owknows said:

Hence the criticism I have offered for the Frazier acquisition.

Vavra, Urias, Westburg, AND Ortiz are all superior options to Frazier.

This is debatable, but the very fact that it is debatable and that we already had these 4 players made the Frazier signing surprising to me.  I can't fault Frazier's stats or the $8 million cost, but the need for another 2B is what I question.

[owknows]

1 minute ago, Number5 said:

This is debatable, but the very fact that it is debatable and that we already had these 4 players made the Frazier signing surprising to me.  I can't fault Frazier's stats or the $8 million cost, but the need for another 2B is what I question.

Can't really argue with that.

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, owknows said:

Hence the criticism I have offered for the Frazier acquisition.

Vavra, Urias, Westburg, AND Ortiz are all superior options to Frazier.

That’s your opinion.  Not saying it’s wrong, but it’s not an objectively verifiable fact, and there’s certainly contrary evidence too.  For example, ZiPS projects Frazier to be better than Vavra and Ortiz, not quite as good as Westburg.   But Westburg is a RHB, kind of redundant of Urias.  Frazier arguably is the better complement.  

Now this doesn’t mean I disagree with the gist of your criticism, I’d just phrase it differently.  There are too many other solid alternatives at 2B/UTI for Frazier to have been a worthwhile acquisition, unless the team is planning some other moves.  
 

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

That’s your opinion.  Not saying it’s wrong, but it’s not an objectively verifiable fact, and there’s certainly contrary evidence too.  For example, ZiPS projects Frazier to be better than Vavra and Ortiz, not quite as good as Westburg.   But Westburg is a RHB, kind of redundant of Urias.  Frazier arguably is the better complement.  

Now this doesn’t mean I disagree with the gist of your criticism, I’d just phrase it differently.  There are too many other solid alternatives at 2B/UTI for Frazier to have been a worthwhile acquisition, unless the team is planning some other moves.  
 

Fair enough. (I need to be more explicit and less expedient)

[sportsfan8703]

Good post by @Frobby

This reminds me of the players/pitchers that have negative WAR each season. It’s obvious that Adley being hurt to start the year really killed us because the backup C played so much. The Sunday lineups have to also not be a thing. The days off need to be more spread out. 
 

This is why the McCann move was better than thought. This explains the FO feeling of needing to sign Frazier to add extra depth to the bench. I had been thinking that Vavra was not making the OD roster, but after waiving Lewin Diaz, I think he makes the OD roster. There’s a lot of ST reps that Vavra can get playing all over the field. 

[SpOkane]

1 hour ago, Brian88 said:

Clearly we need to bring back Owings

Better than Gunnar. 

[SpOkane]

14 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Good post by @Frobby

This reminds me of the players/pitchers that have negative WAR each season. It’s obvious that Adley being hurt to start the year really killed us because the backup C played so much. The Sunday lineups have to also not be a thing. The days off need to be more spread out. 
 

This is why the McCann move was better than thought. This explains the FO feeling of needing to sign Frazier to add extra depth to the bench. I had been thinking that Vavra was not making the OD roster, but after waiving Lewin Diaz, I think he makes the OD roster. There’s a lot of ST reps that Vavra can get playing all over the field. 

During the playoff years, it seemed Duquette cycled out the negative WAR players pretty quickly.

[Moose Milligan]

Man, we should be here bagging on Odor and focusing on how we're going to be 9 games better without him on the team and here you guys are worrying about catching.

[forphase1]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

This is how the O’s did when various players started.  

-5 Chirinos (29-34)

-7 Bemboom (4-11)

-9 Odor (52-61)
 

But they had such a positive presence in the clubhouse and were oozing veteranosity!  Surely that outweighs insignificant stats like win/loss records or .OPS.  

[jabba72]

41 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

But they had such a positive presence in the clubhouse and were oozing veteranosity!  Surely that outweighs insignificant stats like win/loss records or .OPS.  

Judging from this sample size it doesn't actually look like thats true at all. I'd like to think grit and veteranosity help, but.... 

[now]

That's a really interesting stat for Vavra. Small sample but it stands out in context of the other players. It confirms the eye test that he supplied a much needed spark when he started to play... getting on base, running the bases, energizing the lineup. Yes, I also remember he botched one critical play at 2B. But hard to argue the overall positive effect he had on the team, reflected by the +9 wins. (Sort of the reverse of Odor, whose occasional heroics obscured his overall net loss in our record.)

[btdart20]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Man, we should be here bagging on Odor and focusing on how we're going to be 9 games better without him on the team and here you guys are worrying about catching.

Yep.  Will they regress enough to overcome the Odorless gains is the question!  The bar is low for improvement at a few positions.

[btdart20]

2 hours ago, Number5 said:

This is debatable, but the very fact that it is debatable and that we already had these 4 players made the Frazier signing surprising to me.  I can't fault Frazier's stats or the $8 million cost, but the need for another 2B is what I question.

Agreed.  With as many shots on goal as we have, one is bound to find the net!  At 2B and maybe another position or two with time…

I don’t know enough about Zips’ math, but projecting stats for someone with no MLB experience is tough.  That’s likely one factor for higher projections for Frazier.  Seems like securing the floor was a big priority this off-season.

[now]

22 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

Seems like securing the floor was a big priority this off-season.

That's a good way to put it. Not at all what was advertised ("liftoff")... but still useful to grab a few more wins (or, consistent with "securing the floor," to prevent a few more losses).