Jackson Holliday 2023

[sportsfan8703]

I could see Holliday pulling a Trea Turner and playing CF for a year or two to bridge the gap from Mullins to Bradfield. Holliday is going to be a major leaguer really soon. 

[Frobby]

On 8/6/2023 at 11:08 AM, Can_of_corn said:

The meme about the toe aside, Mark Reynolds was not an adroit fielder at first.

He also was a pitiful 3B.  

[Tony-OH]

On 8/5/2023 at 10:19 PM, RZNJ said:

Holliday to CF or even LF is starting to creep into my thoughts.  I know, blasphemy.

Need and players still on the roster could determine this. Holliday is a good overall defender at SS, but he's behind Ortiz and probably Gunnar (do to his plus arm) for now defensively at SS. If Westburg settles in at 2B, and Ortiz is up and playing well at SS, it might make sense to see what he could do in LF due to his plus speed. 

Now, no one wants to take a guy off the dirt if they don't have to, but Holliday's average at best SS arm does fall behind both Ortiz and Gunnar at the moment. I haven't seen anything that makes me think Holliday can't play SS, but just that he's behind the other two for me. Now moving Gunnar to 3B makes sense because with everyday reps there he would be a GG in my opinion. 

I guess you know you have a pretty good group of players already when you can see a scenario where Holliday ends up in the outfield on this team. Again, not a swipe at Holliday, but more about how good Ortiz and even Gunnar is at SS.

[connja]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Need and players still on the roster could determine this. Holliday is a good overall defender at SS, but he's behind Ortiz and probably Gunnar (do to his plus arm) for now defensively at SS. If Westburg settles in at 2B, and Ortiz is up and playing well at SS, it might make sense to see what he could do in LF due to his plus speed. 

Now, no one wants to take a guy off the dirt if they don't have to, but Holliday's average at best SS arm does fall behind both Ortiz and Gunnar at the moment. I haven't seen anything that makes me think Holliday can't play SS, but just that he's behind the other two for me. Now moving Gunnar to 3B makes sense because with everyday reps there he would be a GG in my opinion. 

I guess you know you have a pretty good group of players already when you can see a scenario where Holliday ends up in the outfield on this team. Again, not a swipe at Holliday, but more about how good Ortiz and even Gunnar is at SS.

at least one of these 4 should be traded this off season.  

[Frobby]

52 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Need and players still on the roster could determine this. Holliday is a good overall defender at SS, but he's behind Ortiz and probably Gunnar (do to his plus arm) for now defensively at SS. If Westburg settles in at 2B, and Ortiz is up and playing well at SS, it might make sense to see what he could do in LF due to his plus speed. 

Now, no one wants to take a guy off the dirt if they don't have to, but Holliday's average at best SS arm does fall behind both Ortiz and Gunnar at the moment. I haven't seen anything that makes me think Holliday can't play SS, but just that he's behind the other two for me. Now moving Gunnar to 3B makes sense because with everyday reps there he would be a GG in my opinion. 

I guess you know you have a pretty good group of players already when you can see a scenario where Holliday ends up in the outfield on this team. Again, not a swipe at Holliday, but more about how good Ortiz and even Gunnar is at SS.

Much depends on Ortiz’s bat.  If he hits enough to warrant being an everyday player, then he should be the SS.   But despite his excellent AAA numbers, we won’t know yet if his offense will translate to the majors.   I’d like him to get the opportunity to show that it does.  

[CaptainRedbeard]

10 hours ago, Frobby said:

Much depends on Ortiz’s bat.  If he hits enough to warrant being an everyday player, then he should be the SS.   But despite his excellent AAA numbers, we won’t know yet if his offense will translate to the majors.   I’d like him to get the opportunity to show that it does.  

Agreed, I think this is why they won’t be forcing a trade of Westburg or Ortiz this offseason, and may even hang onto Norby as well. They should all be available in the right deal of course, but even Westburg is no sure thing and you want to make sure you are keeping the right players amongst that group and trading the others.

IMO Holliday is a lock to debut at the end of 2024 so he has rookie status for 2025. They have almost all of the 2024 season before then to work out if Westburg/Ortiz/Norby are everyday players or bench players, and the positions they (and Gunnar and Holliday) are best suited for. As of right now it could go a lot of different directions. If they can swing a big trade before then, then they can make a call on who goes based on the information available at that time but they won’t really be “forced” to trade any of them until the 2024/5 offseason (if at all).

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

Agreed, I think this is why they won’t be forcing a trade of Westburg or Ortiz this offseason, and may even hang onto Norby as well. They should all be available in the right deal of course, but even Westburg is no sure thing and you want to make sure you are keeping the right players amongst that group and trading the others.

IMO Holliday is a lock to debut at the end of 2024 so he has rookie status for 2025. They have almost all of the 2024 season before then to work out if Westburg/Ortiz/Norby are everyday players or bench players, and the positions they (and Gunnar and Holliday) are best suited for. As of right now it could go a lot of different directions. If they can swing a big trade before then, then they can make a call on who goes based on the information available at that time but they won’t really be “forced” to trade any of them until the 2024/5 offseason (if at all).

I don’t think anything about next season is a “lock” with Holliday.  If the O’s are in a tight race, Holliday is marauding through Norfolk and he’s clearly an immediate, material upgrade to the major league roster, I don’t think they’ll hold him back just to keep him eligible for 2025 ROY.   On the other hand, if the team is playing extremely well and getting excellent performance at all the infield spots, and Holliday is playing very well but not head and shoulders above everyone else, then maybe they do hold him back.  We’ll just see how it plays out. 

The kid is hitting .396/.448/.642 at Bowie, at age 19.  It’s only 13 games, so I won’t go too crazy about it yet, but that’s insane.  
 

[Bemorewins]

For those advocating a position switch to the outfield for Holliday, I have a couple of questions:

1) In your opinion- is that the best way to maximize his value? Is he more apt to become say an Allstar 2B (if SS is not his everyday immediate Major League position) as opposed to an Allstar LF/CF especially in Camden Yards where there is a lot of ground to cover and he has never played OF before?

2) Is moving Holliday to OF more about him or other players (other than Henderson who are probably less talented) so that they can get a spot/shot? 

IMO his hitting skills are more advanced and more of a surety than some of the players being mentioned as permanent fixtures to displace him. However if he is a Bryce Harper kind of special hitting talent where the bat will play in terms of its value regardless of where you play him then I guess it doesn’t matter?

I ask these questions and am curious about the perspectives/thoughts/ideas being offered around him because it seems to be an unconventional/odd way to approach the utilization/development of one of your most special/talented organizational pieces.

[CaptainRedbeard]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think anything about next season is a “lock” with Holliday.  If the O’s are in a tight race, Holliday is marauding through Norfolk and he’s clearly an immediate, material upgrade to the major league roster, I don’t think they’ll hold him back just to keep him eligible for 2025 ROY.   On the other hand, if the team is playing extremely well and getting excellent performance at all the infield spots, and Holliday is playing very well but not head and shoulders above everyone else, then maybe they do hold him back.  We’ll just see how it plays out. 

The kid is hitting .396/.448/.642 at Bowie, at age 19.  It’s only 13 games, so I won’t go too crazy about it yet, but that’s insane.  
 

Of course you’re right, but I do think there’s almost no chance of the Orioles debuting him before whatever point they think they are safe for Super 2 next year, barring a horrible rash of injuries. I don’t see them having him go through AAA quickly considering his age and the infielder quality & depth.

If he continues this pace he’ll get a taste of AAA this year once the AA season ends. If he continues to rake at AAA for all of next year, it will be pretty transparent that they are holding him back for rookie eligibility unless Gunnar/Ortiz/Westburg have really locked down 3B/SS/2B. And I agree that the Orioles are not going to keep him in the minors at any point if they think promoting him will be a measurable difference to their playoff chances. 

It’s also nearly unthinkable that he might hit some struggles at some point in AAA/AA, but of course that’s a possibility. 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

For those advocating a position switch to the outfield for Holliday, I have a couple of questions:

1) In your opinion- is that the best way to maximize his value? Is he more apt to become say an Allstar 2B (if SS is not his everyday immediate Major League position) as opposed to an Allstar LF/CF especially in Camden Yards where there is a lot of ground to cover and he has never played OF before?

2) Is moving Holliday to OF more about him or other players (other than Henderson who are probably less talented) so that they can get a spot/shot? 

IMO his hitting skills are more advanced and more of a surety than some of the players being mentioned as permanent fixtures to displace him. However if he is a Bryce Harper kind of special hitting talent where the bat will play in terms of its value regardless of where you play him then I guess it doesn’t matter?

I ask these questions and am curious about the perspectives/thoughts/ideas being offered around him because it seems to be an unconventional/odd way to approach the utilization/development of one of your most special/talented organizational pieces.

1) I and, I believe, Mike Elias, are more interested in maximizing the value/performance of the team than any individual player.

2) See #1.   
 

 

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

Of course you’re right, but I do think there’s almost no chance of the Orioles debuting him before whatever point they think they are safe for Super 2 next year, barring a horrible rash of injuries. I don’t see them having him go through AAA quickly considering his age and the infielder quality & depth.

If he continues this pace he’ll get a taste of AAA this year once the AA season ends. If he continues to rake at AAA for all of next year, it will be pretty transparent that they are holding him back for rookie eligibility unless Gunnar/Ortiz/Westburg have really locked down 3B/SS/2B. And I agree that the Orioles are not going to keep him in the minors at any point if they think promoting him will be a measurable difference to their playoff chances. 

It’s also nearly unthinkable that he might hit some struggles at some point in AAA/AA, but of course that’s a possibility. 

I agree with all this.  And he did have a month-long slump at Aberdeen this year, despite his very good overall numbers there.   So yes, he could have another hiccup along the way, either this year or next.  But what he’s done is beyond impressive.

[Just Regular]

I think there are some similarities between 2020 Wander Franco and 2023 Jackson Holliday, the main one it being apparent this teenager is one of the world's most talented players.      Wander's year - no Minor league game data to work with, so Holliday has more opportunity these 8 weeks to try and continue crushing the upper minors as Elias figures out how best to comport himself with respect to what Adley and Gunnar are earning this year.

Next year if Westburg remains it'll be interesting to see if he falls in or out of the Top 9 Bats.

Some of why i'm so curious if Mayo can continue to at least stand at 3B for awhile is 3B Mayo, SS Gunnar, 2B Holliday is I feel the highest upside combination, though it does unseat all of Westburg-Ortiz-Norby from first string places.

I expect mixing and matching and everyone getting a few days a month off.

[Bemorewins]

41 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

1) I and, I believe, Mike Elias, are more interested in maximizing the value/performance of the team than any individual player.

2) See #1.   
 

 

If you play one of your best/most talented players way out of position (transition from INF to OF), how is that helping the team?

If the kid has the skills/talents to be an all-star INF but you ask him to go be an OF and he is not as effective, but it gives a lesser player a place where they are more comfortable, I struggle to see how that makes the team better.

[George Zuverink]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

If you play one of your best/most talented players way out of position (transition from INF to OF), how is that helping the team?

If the kid has the skills/talents to be an all-star INF but you ask him to go be an OF and he is not as effective, but it gives a lesser player a place where they are more comfortable, I struggle to see how that makes the team better.

It would make the team better of the performance gap between the OF he would be replacing is greater than the performance gap for the IF  he would have otherwise replaced. Suppose Ortiz was at SS and D.J. Stewart was in left. Would you rather have Holiday replace Ortiz or Stewart?

[RZNJ]

22 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

If you play one of your best/most talented players way out of position (transition from INF to OF), how is that helping the team?

If the kid has the skills/talents to be an all-star INF but you ask him to go be an OF and he is not as effective, but it gives a lesser player a place where they are more comfortable, I struggle to see how that makes the team better.

Example 1.   If Joey Ortiz is a legitimate GG shortstop and an average to above average offensive player at SS and Holliday is an average defensively ML SS AND Holliday is an above average defensive LF/CF then it makes sense to me.     Are you assuming that Holliday won’t hit as well as an OF or will not be good defensively?   Of course, that gets factored into the equation.