Cole Irvin 2023

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

No. They are exceptions to the rule as uber prospects. I don't put Hall in that category. Do you?

I think Machado was brought to the bigs at what 19/20 and Markakis at like what 21/22? Hall will be 25 in September. 

I'm not saying that he can't be the odds, but the odds don't really appear to be in his favor in terms of becoming a good starting pitcher. Do you disagree?

You did say "for any prospect".  That was what I had objection with. 

Hall is actually one of the few guys that I did want to see go to AAA.

Honestly with the decrease in velocity I'm officially not expecting anything from Hall.  He had the premium raw stuff going for him, if that's gone...

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, InsideCoroner said:

Irvin really danced out of trouble yesterday. Credit to him for keeping it together through five, but if Mullins had not made that ridiculous catch in the 1st, and if the wind had been blowing (or basically in any other ballpark) that would have been a bloodbath. He was not inspiring confidence. The Twins hit 9 balls at 99.9 Exit Velo or higher, 5 of which went 360+ feet. He escaped with a better line than he deserved.

This really puts things into perspective.  Irvin can be used as a matchup lefty.  Maybe we get creative, and put an opener in front of him.  Even with this "good" outing.  I would not be surprised to see Grayson up shortly.  

[Frobby]

Irvin pitched a nice game yesterday.  It’s interesting that Hyde chose to pull him after 82 pitches.   It certainly worked out. 

Since returning from the minors, Irvin has posted a 3.44 ERA.  That’ll work.  
 

[webbrick2010]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Irvin pitched a nice game yesterday.  It’s interesting that Hyde chose to pull him after 82 pitches.   It certainly worked out. 

Since returning from the minors, Irvin has posted a 3.44 ERA.  That’ll work.  
 

He pitches okay against weak lineups, he will get killed by the AL East

[bluedog]

45 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I can’t agree with this.  First of all, guys are traded all the time in “sell” trades where you know the player is good but the team isn’t so you need to get younger guys in exchange.  And conversely, there are plenty of trades involving young guys who the team is high on, but they need someone who can help immediately so they make a trade.   To me, “give up on” implies that the team no longer expects the player to be good.   

I give up on things I believe to be good all the time because I believe there is a better outcome to be had elsewhere. You are implying that "give up" has a negative connotation. I don't feel it does. Semantics.

[wildcard]

58 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I wonder if he was not in the Orioles organization but another, if you would have a similar assessment? 

Before the "back injury" and drop in velo, he was a major question mark to me. He has never been able to dominate AAA consistently, stop walking batters at a high rate, or go deep into games (like past the 5th inning). At least with Grayson, he has checked those boxes, so there is a reasonable belief that if he can fix the command issues, he can be a good starting pitcher. With Hall, other than the superb strikeout rate, there isn't a whole lot there to like as a starter IMO.

For any prospect, I like to see them have some sort of consistent success at AAA before I believe that they can succeed at the Major League level. The jump in competition has to be a factor.  

Hall is still the 2nd best starting prospect the O's have in the minors.   He is only 24. Depending on  who is rating him when healthy he has a 60 or 70 fastball,  a 55 or 60 slider,  a  55 or 50 changeup and a 45 or 55  curveball.  He has started 29 game at AAA.  

Too much there to give up on.

[bluedog]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Irvin pitched a nice game yesterday.  It’s interesting that Hyde chose to pull him after 82 pitches.   It certainly worked out. 

Since returning from the minors, Irvin has posted a 3.44 ERA.  That’ll work.  
 

I felt the same thing. He was even better in the rain shortened start as well.

I don't think Elias traded away a quality prospect for Irvin just to punt on him at the first sign of adversity. He's going to really try to get value out of him.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, wildcard said:

Hall is still the 2nd best starting prospect the O's have in the minors.   He is only 24. Depending on  who is rating him when healthy he has a 60 or 70 fastball,  a 55 or 60 slider,  a  55 or 50 changeup and a 45 or 55  curveball.  He has started 29 game at AAA.  

Too much there to give up on.

As unimpressed as I am with Povich I think he's currently slotted over Hall.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, bluedog said:

I give up on things I believe to be good all the time because I believe there is a better outcome to be had elsewhere. You are implying that "give up" has a negative connotation. I don't feel it does. Semantics.

Give up doesn't.  Give up on does.

[InsideCoroner]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Irvin pitched a nice game yesterday.  It’s interesting that Hyde chose to pull him after 82 pitches.   It certainly worked out. 

Since returning from the minors, Irvin has posted a 3.44 ERA.  That’ll work.  
 

He wasn't fooling anybody yesterday with 9 baserunners in 5 innings, but he pitched well under pressure. The Twins hit a lot of balls hard against him, and there was really no room for error there in a one-run game., so I wasn't unhappy to see him replaced.

Definitely, if he puts up a mid-3 ERA I would be very happy. I still feel a lot better having him pitch at home (.766 OPS against) than on the road (1.099 OPS).

[wildcard]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

As unimpressed as I am with Povich I think he's currently slotted over Hall.

I have not seen any pitch Povich throws rated better than 50.   Rating him about Hall is premature unless you think Hall will never get healthy again IMO.

Edited July 3, 2023 by wildcard

[Bemorewins]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Hall is still the 2nd best starting prospect the O's have in the minors.   He is only 24. Depending on  who is rating him when healthy he has a 60 or 70 fastball,  a 55 or 60 slider,  a  55 or 50 changeup and a 45 or 55  curveball.  He has started 29 game at AAA.  

Too much there to give up on.

2nd best pitching prospect in the Rays/Dodgers/Guardians system means something. Second best in a system that doesn't have much top end pitching talent means very little. Besides, his prospect status is falling, not rising.

His problem is stuff or pitch shape, it's the ability to command those pitches and throw them for strikes consistently. 

He will be 25 years of age in September and has never dominated in AAA consistently.

Again, I ask, if Hall was in another org would you look at him the same way? The orange colored lens that you view the O's in reminds me of Jim Hunter. Does the critique of him trouble you or not make any rational sense to you? Are you able/willing to acknowledge some concerns about DL Hall?

[bluedog]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Not it doesn't.

Nothing about the Gausman trade had anything to do with the O's not having faith in him.  It had to do with trading an asset to lower payroll obligations.  They hadn't lost faith in Hader, he was one of three pieces in a deal to help the team in the short term. 

Trying to go dictionary on me was a decent effort, but ultimately futile.

Nothing futile about it. My opinion is just as valid as yours, although different.

Opportunity cost is a real thing and in my opinion discarding one option (whether its good or bad) for an option that is perceived to be better is absolutely an example of "giving up" on that option.

There's no negative connotation on giving up on something - it just means you chosen to go a different way.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, bluedog said:

Nothing futile about it. My opinion is just as valid as yours, although different.

Opportunity cost is a real thing and in my opinion discarding one option (whether its good or bad) for an option that is perceived to be better is absolutely an example of "giving up" on that option.

There's no negative connotation on giving up on something - it just means you chosen to go a different way.

Except it's not.

You decided to bring a dictionary in and they sided with my opinion.

Once again you didn't just say give up, you said give up on.  Different thing.  Now if you want to fault me for my misplacing a quotation mark, sure.  I didn't expect anyone to die on this hill.

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

2nd best pitching prospect in the Rays/Dodgers/Guardians system means something. Second best in a system that doesn't have much top end pitching talent means very little. Besides, his prospect status is falling, not rising.

His problem is stuff or pitch shape, it's the ability to command those pitches and throw them for strikes consistently. 

He will be 25 years of age in September and has never dominated in AAA consistently.

Again, I ask, if Hall was in another org would you look at him the same way? The orange colored lens that you view the O's in reminds me of Jim Hunter. Does the critique of him trouble you or not make any rational sense to you? Are you able/willing to acknowledge some concerns about DL Hall?

My orange colored glasses told me that Irvin was the 7th best starter on the O's staff and just pitching depth.  That had some tell me I was crazy and he would pitch 180 innings  for the O's this year.  So I call them as I see them.

Is Hall concerning.  Of course.   But I think he was changing from a thrower to the pitcher this spring.  Probably because he did not have the 97 mph fastball has had to figure out how to get batters out.

If his problem really is an injury and he gets healthy most fans and rating services will jump back on his band wagon.  I am impressed with his stuff,  hopeful for his control and command.   So I am still on his band wagon.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by wildcard