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The Westburg and Cowser dilemma

Sanity Check

By Sanity Check
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Mr-splash Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

Mr-splash

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Maybe there has been a big trade for a TOR in the past where the prospects coming back were rated highly but say hitting .175 in their big league callup.  I can’t recall. 
 

Routine trades yeah.. but a big time mega deal swap for a TOR.. well fan base PR and thus ownership are in the mix big time with that type of deal and they may have more heartburn if the guy coming back has been struggling at the big league level.  Even if it is not a problem for the GM/staff. 

TOR starters rarely get traded if guys like Stowers are the main piece.

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orioles22
orioles22

I know this is not the point of the thread, but I don't get all the Cowser/Stowers comparisons. I never thought Stowers would be more than a role player. I expect Cowser to be a cornerstone of the tea

Bemorewins
Bemorewins

You pose some very interesting questions and scenarios. I guess for me, the two shouldn’t be lumped together as prospects. One is in a higher class of prospect than the other.  IMO - While C

sportsfan8703
sportsfan8703

We need a spark. Cowser should be our RF against RH SP. Westburg should play over over Mateo versus RH SP and over Frazier/Gunnar over LH SP. 

Bemorewins Hangout Grand Counsel

Bemorewins

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

Many of us would love to see Westburg and Cowser at the major league level to see how their talents translate to the next level.  I would love to see what they could do before we might consider trading them away for roster upgrades.  BUT.....

.....Here's the dilemma I see, and would love to get thoughts on.  We (the Orioles and the Hangout) were very high on Kyle Stowers, but I have to think his value was higher when he was putting up numbers in Norfolk than it is now, after not being very successful in his brief taste of the majors.

So, my questions...because I don't want to assume everyone agrees.  If you're another organization looking at Kyle Stowers for example, do you think his value is less now because of his struggles at the MLB level??

And secondly, are Westburg and Cowser more valuable now because of what they've done to this point in the minor leagues, or do we risk promoting them and having them struggle, and diminishing their immediate value in a trade scenario? (Keeping in mind both Stowers and Henderson's struggles, and the fact that Joey Ortiz also did not "light it up" in his brief stay in Baltimore....and yes, I know he only had limited opportunities, but he looked "okay" with the bat, not like someone you couldn't take out of the lineup....after all, he had been batting 4th a lot at Norfolk).

Do we promote these guys and risk potentially de-valuing them?  Thoughts?? 

You pose some very interesting questions and scenarios.

I guess for me, the two shouldn’t be lumped together as prospects. One is in a higher class of prospect than the other. 

IMO - While Cowser is not a top 10 in the game type of prospect like Adley, Gunnar, Grayson, Holliday are/were; he is a former top pick in the first round. And he is a top 30ish rated prospect. That’s not the same as what Westburg is.

Second, you may be speaking for others incorrectly with your Stowers opinion. He was NEVER rated anywhere near as high as Cowser. I guess the similarity is that they were LH college bats. But that’s where the comparison really begins and ends. Cowser is a MUCH better athlete. (Stowers is an adequate athlete, maybe even above average, but they are not in the same tier there.)

To answer your question about Stowers’ value, yes it is a little down now (given his SSS struggles in the bigs) but it was NEVER that high to begin with. 

Also, value propositions are influenced by how the GAME sees a prospect not how a fanbase sees a prospect. I know some disagree, but that’s why I look at prospect ranking lists, to get a feel about how a guy is viewed from a general perspective. 

Laslty, beyond the scouting consensus/rankings prospect value is also influenced by years of control and Major League readiness. Both Cowser and Westburg have max value there. They haven’t used up any option years either. So in theory, it might be the safer proposition to keep them down until the deadline trade window, if we are considering either in a trade.

I was thinking earlier to myself, “I wonder what a Westburg/Ortiz, Mayo/Norby and Urias package could get us in a trade?” That would be 1 plug and play infielder who is cost controlled (former GG winner), one Major League ready prospect with 6 years of control, and one guy who is about a year away who is emerging in terms of prospect status. 

I appreciate you raising this fine point of discussion!

 

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2001OriolesFan Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

2001OriolesFan

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Your dilemma is based on trade value.  And since I don't see the O's trading Cowser or Westburg any time this season I am not worried about it.

The players that will be traded or gone in the next year are Frazier, Santander, Gibson,  Givens and Mateo is edging in that direction.

Frazier, Gibson, Givens will be FA after the season.   Santander will be in his walk year next year and the O's are probably not signing him to a long term extension.   Mateo though a great defender has slumped badly for two years in a row.   With Henderson and Ortiz on the team and Holliday progressing fast I don't think Mateo is here next year.

Of the prospects Stowers because he is not as good as Mullins, Hays, Cowser or Kjerstad could be tradable.    Norby and Prieto are hitters that  are not great defenders.   I could see them traded.

I feel good about Wells, Kremer, Bradish and Gibson for the rest of the season.   GRod was sent down but he did not die.    He will be back after a reset.  Voth, Irvin, Watkins, Rom could help over the rest of season when needed.  Hall is still here and is could be promoted if he just shows some consistency.

I expect the same thing to happen at the trade deadline that has happened in the past.   The O's talk about getting a better starter.   But when it comes down to executing a trade they will not want to give  up what it required to get a top starter.

The O's have the 2nd best record is the MLB and they are still getting better.  

 

Mateo is more than edging in that direction.  He is 6th from bottom in fielding percentage  Too many routine plays were flubbed. Doesn't make up for all the  wow plays.

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orioles22 Major Leaguer

orioles22

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, maybenxtyr said:

I think in Cowser's case they would look at an alignment of CC -LF, Mullins -CF and Hays -RF. Then Santander could be a fill in RF, DH and 1B on occasion. That scenario would have Cowser needing to be better than McKenna and Vavra for it to be effective. I think that's doable, and Hays may be better suited for RF considering he has an excellent arm.

 

Westburg is a different story. They seem content on having Frazier play at 2B most days. Now, if they eventually pull the plug on Mateo then that could open up a whole different infield alignment that could open up a path for Westburg.

I like that outfield alignment, but I don't see a place for Santander. With Adley as the DH a couple of days a week, I think they want to keep that spot a place where they can rotate Adley with one of the reserve infielders to keep everyone active. I also don't see any reason Cowser can't be our best outfielder by 2025. I think he's a much higher level prospect than either Hays or Mullins at a similar point in their careers.

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ChuckS Hangout Grand Counsel

ChuckS

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Your dilemma is based on trade value.  And since I don't see the O's trading Cowser or Westburg any time this season I am not worried about it.

The players that will be traded or gone in the next year are Frazier, Santander, Gibson,  Givens and Mateo is edging in that direction.

Frazier, Gibson, Givens will be FA after the season.   Santander will be in his walk year next year and the O's are probably not signing him to a long term extension.   Mateo though a great defender has slumped badly for two years in a row.   With Henderson and Ortiz on the team and Holliday progressing fast I don't think Mateo is here next year.

Of the prospects Stowers because he is not as good as Mullins, Hays, Cowser or Kjerstad could be tradable.    Norby and Prieto are hitters that  are not great defenders.   I could see them traded.

I feel good about Wells, Kremer, Bradish and Gibson for the rest of the season.   GRod was sent down but he did not die.    He will be back after a reset.  Voth, Irvin, Watkins, Rom could help over the rest of season when needed.  Hall is still here and is could be promoted if he just shows some consistency.

I expect the same thing to happen at the trade deadline that has happened in the past.   The O's talk about getting a better starter.   But when it comes down to executing a trade they will not want to give  up what it required to get a top starter.

The O's have the 2nd best record is the MLB and they are still getting better.  

 

So you think they rather have good prospects wasting away in the high minors with no path to regular playing time in Baltimore, than move some of them for potential difference makers in the rotation and elsewhere?

I think Westburg and Mayo are some of the most likely bats to be traded along with Norby and a few others.

Some of the other players you mentioned don’t have enough value to be even worth moving. I would not expect Frazier to go anywhere unless we are out of contention in two months, which is highly unlikely.  

Bottom line, is you have to trade away players who carry significant demand if you expect any valuable pieces back and contributing veterans won’t be the players on the move IMO. 

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Three Run Homer Hangout Veteran Council

Three Run Homer

Posted
Posted

Westburg needs to come up for Vavra ASAP.  The O's are struggling against lefties.  They are currently getting shut out against a LHP.  All of their righties are in the lineup, but "all of their righties" include McCann who has struggled all season, McKenna who is struggling and Urias who has looked terrible since coming back.  Even with all of their righties in the lineup they have Frazier at 2B.  We need a jolt of offense agasint LHP and Westburg is the best candidate.   

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ChuckS Hangout Grand Counsel

ChuckS

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Well.. Mullin just pulled up lame running out a grounder to first. If he goes on the IL, let's see if Cowser gets the call

I suspect we will see plenty of McKenna in CF.  

Possibly Hays moving over.  Cowser would be logical if he was healthy.  

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