This triple by Gunnar

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

My point is simple. Holliday is not playing on the right side of the infield. That’s my point. If you are getting a solid to capable defender at SS with his bat that is enormous value. 
 

Is it possible he plays 3rd and Gunnar SS, sure. He isn’t playing second. 

Ok.  You are at least conceding that he isn’t guaranteed the SS position because he was drafted there.   I don’t really get your issue about 2B and 3B.   

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Position is very important when drafting.   The caveat is that you are not guaranteed that position for life so as you can appear to have the most value as a minor leaguer on your road to the Hall of Fame.

Holliday is not playing second for the Orioles. What is so hard about this. Do you think Gunnar doesn’t have the arm for 3rd? 
 

No team in their right mind is going to take a prospect of Holliday’s talent and his age and move him off a premium position. It’s not going to happen. 

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

 

Why exactly? 
 

Termarr Johnson needs to have an elite bat to have similar value to a SS. He isn’t a SS. That devalued him. I don’t get why this is so hard. There is no way in the world Holliday is the top prospect in the sports if he can’t play SS in the bigs. 
 

Go find me a number 1 prospect who is a second baseman?

Ok. Holliday is devalued as a prospect if he’s viewed as a 2B.   I thought we were talking about where he eventually plays for the Orioles.   Two different things.   He can be viewed as an above average SS defensively, have tons of prospect value, and still turn the pivot at 2B as Gunnar’s DP partner.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

Holliday is not playing second for the Orioles. What is so hard about this. Do you think Gunnar doesn’t have the arm for 3rd? 
 

No team in their right mind is going to take a prospect of Holliday’s talent and his age and move him off a premium position. It’s not going to happen. 

You just posted that you could see Holliday at 3B and Gunnar at SS, didn’t you?

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Ok.  You are at least conceding that he isn’t guaranteed the SS position because he was drafted there.   I don’t really get your issue about 2B and 3B.   

2B does not have the same value as SS or 3rd. You have to know this. You would be getting a ton of offense at a position that usually does not have it. It’s the same logic with Adley. He would not carry the same value as a 1B. 
 

If Jeter played second instead of SS he is a HOF? First ballot? 

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You just posted that you could see Holliday at 3B and Gunnar at SS, didn’t you?

Yes I did. It’s the left side of the infield. I personally think it’s close to a lock Gunnar moves to 3rd. 

[RZNJ]

Just now, eddie83 said:

Yes I did. It’s the left side of the infield. I personally think it’s close to a lock Gunnar moves to 3rd. 

Ok. So you feel 3B is a premium position and that 2B is not.   Got it.   Someone brought up Roberto Alomar.  Came up as a SS and some feel was a pretty good 2B.   Bobby Grich was another.   2B might not be seen as a premium position or a good way to get into the HOF.   It just boggles my mind how much the thought of Holliday playing 2B at the ML level bothers you.   

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

It means Holliday is not going to be playing second base. His value would not be as high there. Gunnar playing 3rd and Holliday SS is my guess. 

The Orioles didn’t draft him with the top pick to play second. 

IMO - The value would be higher if he has the kind of elite skills with the bat that it looks like. There are many 2B in the American League outside of Semien who are great offensive players. This would give us the chance to extract value out of him as being a multiple time all-star at 2B. 

If Gunnar is able to hold SS and Holliday is able to hold down 2B, we have +/all-starish type value at both of those critical positions up the middle.

Now having said all of this, I don’t care whether they move Holliday or not. And I am certainly not advocating for it. But if they do, I don’t think it has to be a bad thing at all.

What I hope that they do eventually is allow guys to settle into 1 position so that they can get the constant reps necessary to become the best they can be at whatever position. I’m not a fan of the moving everybody around thing and treating them all like utility players. It takes time (lots of time) to master anything. The more unnecessary time you take away from that one thing, almost always proves to be hindersome. 

[Malike]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Ok. So you feel 3B is a premium position and that 2B is not.   Got it.   Someone brought up Roberto Alomar.  Came up as a SS and some feel was a pretty good 2B.   Bobby Grich was another.   2B might not be seen as a premium position or a good way to get into the HOF.   It just boggles my mind how much the thought of Holliday playing 2B at the ML level bothers you.   

2B is going to be valued a lot differently without the shift. Guys with Alomar's range are going to be extremely valuable going forward.

[eddie83]

Just now, RZNJ said:

Ok. So you feel 3B is a premium position and that 2B is not.   Got it.   Someone brought up Roberto Alomar.  Came up as a SS and some feel was a pretty good 2B.   Bobby Grich was another.   2B might not be seen as a premium position or a good way to get into the HOF.   It just boggles my mind how much the thought of Holliday playing 2B at the ML level bothers you.   

It’s illogical that’s why. He would not be the top prospect in the sport if he wasn’t capable of playing SS. 
 

You don’t move someone off a position they can handle to play an inferior position. A LT in football doesn’t get moved to G. 

[Bemorewins]

16 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

2B does not have the same value as SS or 3rd. You have to know this. You would be getting a ton of offense at a position that usually does not have it. It’s the same logic with Adley. He would not carry the same value as a 1B. 
 

If Jeter played second instead of SS he is a HOF? First ballot? 

Yes. Because of what he did with the bat, especially in the clutch and in the postseason. 

I’m not on one side of or the other of this argument. But there are Hall of Famers who were 2B. 

IF and that is a very big if, Jackson Holliday could be of that kind/caliber at 2B, I don’t think anyone would oppose that including himself, his dad, and Boras.

[Malike]

5 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

It’s illogical that’s why. He would not be the top prospect in the sport if he wasn’t capable of playing SS. 
 

You don’t move someone off a position they can handle to play an inferior position. A LT in football doesn’t get moved to G. 

I think because we're so used to 3 IF on the right side of the infield, we've forgotten how important is to have someone with range and the arm to turn a DP at 2B. Ramon made a fantastic play last night that would have been a routine groundout last season. A lot of 2B do not get to that ball.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Malike said:

2B is going to be valued a lot differently without the shift. Guys with Alomar's range are going to be extremely valuable going forward.

I don't think so.

The impact of getting rid of the shift hasn't been great.

 

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

It’s illogical that’s why. He would not be the top prospect in the sport if he wasn’t capable of playing SS. 
 

You don’t move someone off a position they can handle to play an inferior position. A LT in football doesn’t get moved to G. 

I disagree with the football analogy used here. 

I’m not sure if you are a Ravens fan or not. But Marshall Yanda could have been and at times (like the 2014 playoffs) proved that he was at the very least a capable LT. But at G he was otherworldly and a future Hall of Famer.

[Malike]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think so.

The impact of getting rid of the shift hasn't been great.

 

I think it's going to take some time but we're already seeing the impact of having a 2B with poor range and how it now affects the game. You can't hide guys like Frazier anymore at 2B without the shift to back him up.