Ruth-Era Home Run Questions

[Sports Guy]

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think. Just from a confidence factor. There is no fear standing over the plate knowing that a fastball to the elbow won't hurt or put you on the DL.

MLB did Bonds a favor and exempted Bonds from the new body armor rules.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0318/1353635.html

From BP article in 2002:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1408

From SI article

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/05/20/body.armor/

Yep and both are illegal...The rest is window dressing.

[DrungoHazewood]

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

If amphetamines were just the same as a few cups of coffee, why would anyone in their right mind take them by the handful knowing full well they were illegal?

Neither you nor I can quantify what steriods do for a hitter, nor how much of that is nullified by pitchers taking the same things.

Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think...

Bonds' elbow protector could be worn by anyone who applied for an exemption from MLB. Lots of other players, such as everybody's little hero Craig Biggio, wear similar things.

[66-70-83-??]

Yep and both are illegal...The rest is window dressing.

You are correct.

Kind of like how driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone and grand theft auto are both illegal.

[DrungoHazewood]

You are correct.

Kind of like how driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone and grand theft auto are both illegal.

The steroid overreactors seem to think taking handfuls of amphetamines daily for 30 years is like going 56 in a 55, while trying steroids a few times is like murder.

[66-70-83-??]

If amphetamines were just the same as a few cups of coffee, why would anyone in their right mind take them by the handful knowing full well they were illegal?

Neither you nor I can quantify what steriods do for a hitter, nor how much of that is nullified by pitchers taking the same things.

Greenies act quicker and longer without the side effects of drinking lots of coffee.

No, I can't quantify what steroids do for a hitter. Why would so many world class athletes take these illegal substances with often severe and sometimes unknown (designer steroids) health consequences if they didn't help a lot ?

Bonds' elbow protector could be worn by anyone who applied for an exemption from MLB. Lots of other players, such as everybody's little hero Craig Biggio, wear similar things.

Simply not true. Or else you would see most players wearing it.

Too many were wearing it and that was the reason for MLB's rule changes in 2002. Biggio and Bonds were among a handful that recieved the exemption.

Now, there has to be a medical reason with a note from a doctor allowing it.

It might not be difficult to obtain, but it isn't automatic.

In order to wear a pad longer than 10 inches, a player will need to show a medical reason for it.

"There's probably seven or eight guys that will apply for that," Watson said. "All of that has to be done with doctors' notes and has to be sanctioned by my office."

[mweb]

True. Both do improve performance. Greenies are like a big dose of caffeine and help ward off fatigue. Steroids do a lot more.

Aaron likely took greenies, but not steroids. He also didn't wear body armor.

Bonds took greenies, steroids, hgh, and had body armor.

Body armor hasn't got much attention as performance enhancing, but it probably helps more than we think. Just from a confidence factor. There is no fear standing over the plate knowing that a fastball to the elbow won't hurt or put you on the DL.

MLB did Bonds a favor and exempted Bonds from the new body armor rules.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0318/1353635.html

From BP article in 2002:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1408

From SI article

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/05/20/body.armor/

I think there's a decent chance Aaron took steroids towards the end of his career. There is certainly reason to be suspicious.

I think you're underestimating greenies. This article suggests it had a very big effect on baseball. Some quotes:

"Players use amphetamines to be the player they can't be when they're tired," said the veteran, who asked that his name not be used.

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

"The manager comes to you and what are you going to say?... 'Oh, no, sorry. I can't go today.' I used it on days when I felt shut down, to keep my name in the lineup," he said. "You're going to see a lot of guys asking the manager for a day off."

"The way a lot of guys think is... advance your career, make your money, take care of your family, follow your dream and pay the consequences later with your health," he(Javy Lopez) said.

But again, sure some guys have had more of an advantage than others, but if you consider one cheating, you have to consider the other to be cheating.

I'm not a fan of the body armour, but it isn't against the rules, so that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

[mweb]

You are correct.

Kind of like how driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone and grand theft auto are both illegal.

Except nothing like that. Taking greenies vs taking steroids is essentially breaking the same law with similiar ramifications to one who uses them.

[66-70-83-??]

I think there's a decent chance Aaron took steroids towards the end of his career. There is certainly reason to be suspicious.

I think you're underestimating greenies. This article suggests it had a very big effect on baseball. Some quotes:

"Players use amphetamines to be the player they can't be when they're tired," said the veteran, who asked that his name not be used.

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

"The manager comes to you and what are you going to say?... 'Oh, no, sorry. I can't go today.' I used it on days when I felt shut down, to keep my name in the lineup," he said. "You're going to see a lot of guys asking the manager for a day off."

"The way a lot of guys think is... advance your career, make your money, take care of your family, follow your dream and pay the consequences later with your health," he(Javy Lopez) said.

But again, sure some guys have had more of an advantage than others, but if you consider one cheating, you have to consider the other to be cheating.

I'm not a fan of the body armour, but it isn't against the rules, so that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

There is no evidence that Aaron took steroids or HGH.

There is evidence that Bonds took steroids and HGH.

Greenies are a wash since both took them.

At the end of the day, Bonds is #1 with 757 Home Runs. But, he did have several advantages that Aaron didn't have (body armor, hgh, roids).

So, in my mind, there is enough doubt about the authenticity of Bonds home runs that I won't consider him as good a home run hitter as Ruth or Aaron. And Maris' 61 HR's is looking a lot better right now than McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Just like Rose having the most hits doesn't make him the best hitter.

Maybe time and/or more evidence will come out and I will change my mind about Bonds. But, right now, I just can't. Call me a "steroid overreactor" or whatever else...... It doesn't matter.

[66-70-83-??]

Except nothing like that. Taking greenies vs taking steroids is essentially breaking the same law with similiar ramifications to one who uses them.

True.

But, there are degrees of cheating in my opinion.

I took greenies before, a long time ago. I know what they are about.

I have never took roids. But, I know a few who have. And I have read and seen what the abuse of them can do.

And there is no comparison in that regard, in my opinion.

[mweb]

There is no evidence that Aaron took steroids or HGH.

There is evidence that Bonds took steroids and HGH.

Greenies are a wash since both took them.

At the end of the day, Bonds is #1 with 757 Home Runs. But, he did have several advantages that Aaron didn't have (body armor, hgh, roids).

So, in my mind, there is enough doubt about the authenticity of Bonds home runs that I won't consider him as good a home run hitter as Ruth or Aaron. And Maris' 61 HR's is looking a lot better right now than McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Just like Rose having the most hits doesn't make him the best hitter.

Maybe time and/or more evidence will come out and I will change my mind about Bonds. But, right now, I just can't. Call me a "steroid overreactor" or whatever else...... It doesn't matter.

There is circumstantial evidence that would suggest Aaron might have taken steroids, but obviously there is no hard evidence of that.

I couldn't care less if you think Aaron is the better HR hitter, I just don't care for people saying this record is so tainted while refusing to acknowledge that basically all numbers are tainted in someway or the other, and refusing to acknowledge that cheating, including using illegal supplements has been going on for a very long time in baseball, and guys like Aaron aren't nearly as pure as assumed.

[mweb]

True.

But, there are degrees of cheating in my opinion.

I took greenies before, a long time ago. I know what they are about.

I have never took roids. But, I know a few who have. And I have read and seen what the abuse of them can do.

And there is no comparison in that regard, in my opinion.

If you're speaking of the abuse to one's body in a negative way, which I assume you're, I don't think many care about that part of this debate. People couldn't care less if Barry dies a few years early or whatever the case may be. They care that he took something illegal to give him an edge in baseball, and now has the most hollowed record in baseball. They care because steroids are screwing up the integrity of the game as BTerp said.

[DrungoHazewood]

Simply not true. Or else you would see most players wearing it.

Too many were wearing it and that was the reason for MLB's rule changes in 2002. Biggio and Bonds were among a handful that recieved the exemption.

Now, there has to be a medical reason with a note from a doctor allowing it.

It might not be difficult to obtain, but it isn't automatic.

In order to wear a pad longer than 10 inches, a player will need to show a medical reason for it.

Or most players don't see the benefit of wearing a big, bulky arm pad so they don't go to the trouble.