Ruth-Era Home Run Questions

[Anonymous]

This Bonds record chase got me wondering about how the record picture used to look way back when. If anyone has answers, I’ll be curious to hear. (Forgive me in advance for failing to post a thank you, as I’m about to head out for a rare vacation – and will be checking upon my return next week.)

- What was the HR career record total BEFORE Babe broke it? I would also ask who held it -- except I'm quite certain the name wouln't ring a bell of any sort.

- When Babe finished up at 714, who was # 2 and how many did he have?

- Who has the highest total among players whose career overlapped with the Babe? (I guess overlapped could be interpreted in either a trivial or non-trivial sense, as it’s possible someone had a cup of coffee at the end of Babe’s career. Any kind of response would be welcomed.)

[mweb]

I believe Harry Stovey had it with 122 hr's. I might be mistaken on that, regardless, it was around that number.

Players actually looked down on trying to hit hr's back then.

Of course the numbers from those days are tainted because of the quality of competition was weak.

[66-70-83-??]

I believe Harry Stovey had it with 122 hr's. I might be mistaken on that, regardless, it was around that number.

Players actually looked down on trying to hit hr's back then.

Of course the numbers from those days are tainted because of the quality of competition was weak.

LOL.

You are really on a crusade for Bonds.

He doesn't deserve the effort you are putting out for him.

First you were trying to make Bonds look better by tearing down Aaron. Now Ruth is tainted ?

Only one of three is a known cheater. Everything else is speculation about Aaron and Ruth.

Weaker competition ? Why ? Because black players weren't allowed to play ?

True, but that is offset by the bigger parks, leagues with only 8 teams (only really good pitchers cracked many fewer roster spots than today).

Bonds was one of the best all around players in history before he turned into the Hulk.

Babe is still the unquestioned best HR hitter. He hit more than many whole teams did. Even when Bonds hit 73, Sosa had 66.

[mweb]

LOL.

You are really on a crusade for Bonds.

He doesn't deserve the effort you are putting out for him.

First you were trying to make Bonds look better by tearing down Aaron. Now Ruth is tainted ?

Only one of three is a known cheater. Everything else is speculation about Aaron and Ruth.

Weaker competition ? Why ? Because black players weren't allowed to play ?

True, but that is offset by the bigger parks, leagues with only 8 teams (only really good pitchers cracked many fewer roster spots than today).

Bonds was one of the best all around players in history before he turned into the Hulk.

Babe is still the unquestioned best HR hitter. He hit more than many whole teams did. Even when Bonds hit 73, Sosa had 66.

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies. The steroid part, who knows? I'm not trying to tear him down, just presenting information that most either haven't heard or choose to ignore.

I didn't say Ruth was a cheater at all. But yes, weaker competition in large part, because blacks and most hispanics were not allowed to play. If you look at the post Drungo made about Ruth, you probably wouldn't use the bigger parks argument. Your next point is easily offset by the huge increase in population since then. Plus pitchers didn't throw as hard in general, and didn't have as many pitches.

Yes, Babe was the best compared to his peers, however you have to consider that when he was out-homering entire teams, those teams weren't really trying to hit hr's. He revolutionized the game in that way.

I'm not on a crusade for Bonds, I'm using this record, and the reaction to it, to try to make a point about the history of baseball.

[Avsfan]

People have a hard time accepting certain things that have been de-bunked or questioned...after they've had it ingrained into their head for such a long time.

[mweb]

I believe Harry Stovey had it with 122 hr's. I might be mistaken on that, regardless, it was around that number.

Players actually looked down on trying to hit hr's back then.

Of course the numbers from those days are tainted because of the quality of competition was weak.

Actually, Stovey, a former Oriole, did hold the record, but Roger Connor surpassed him and ended up with 138. He was inducted into the HOF in 1976.

[66-70-83-??]

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies. The steroid part, who knows? I'm not trying to tear him down, just presenting information that most either haven't heard or choose to ignore.

I didn't say Ruth was a cheater at all. But yes, weaker competition in large part, because blacks and most hispanics were not allowed to play. If you look at the post Drungo made about Ruth, you probably wouldn't use the bigger parks argument. Your next point is easily offset by the huge increase in population since then. Plus pitchers didn't throw as hard in general, and didn't have as many pitches.

Yes, Babe was the best compared to his peers, however you have to consider that when he was out-homering entire teams, those teams weren't really trying to hit hr's. He revolutionized the game in that way.

I'm not on a crusade for Bonds, I'm using this record, and the reaction to it, to try to make a point about the history of baseball.

There is no comparison between "greenies" and steroids.

RF down the line was 295' but CF in Yankee Stadium was 490' !

Not "trying" to hit HR's ? Yeah, right. They couldn't.

Bonds vs Ruth. There is no comparison. Bonds is the all-time HR king, but Ruth is the better HR hitter and overall hitter.

[Avsfan]

Ruth is the better HR hitter and overall hitter.

Even though Bond's 2004 season might be the greatest single offensive season in the history of the game?

[mweb]

There is no comparison between "greenies" and steroids.

RF down the line was 295' but CF in Yankee Stadium was 490' !

Not "trying" to hit HR's ? Yeah, right. They couldn't.

Bonds vs Ruth. There is no comparison. Bonds is the all-time HR king, but Ruth is the better HR hitter and overall hitter.

Why isn't there a comparision? They were both illegal PED's. Just because steroids may help someone more?

Bonds plays in one of the most difficult parks to hit hr's in.

Most players back then didn't think hitting hr's was the right was to do things. If you think players were trying to hit hr's before, explain how they all of a sudden started hitting them right after Ruth made it the thing to do?

Ruth was a better hitter compared to his peers imo, but Bonds was a better defender and baserunner. Obviously Ruth has the pitching angle as well. BTW, Bonds BRAA for his career is 1,460, Ruth's is 1,480, if adjusted for all time, Bonds as a near 100 run edge. Bonds career WARP3: 241.6. Ruth: 237.6.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Roger Conner had 138 home runs for his career before Ruth passed him in 1921 (according to BaseballReference.com

Also from that site, Gehrig was the active leader after Ruth retired, so he would be second.

[66-70-83-??]

Why isn't there a comparision? They were both illegal PED's. Just because steroids may help someone more?

Bonds plays in one of the most difficult parks to hit hr's in.

Most players back then didn't think hitting hr's was the right was to do things. If you think players were trying to hit hr's before, explain how they all of a sudden started hitting them right after Ruth made it the thing to do?

Ruth was a better hitter compared to his peers imo, but Bonds was a better defender and baserunner. Obviously Ruth has the pitching angle as well. BTW, Bonds BRAA for his career is 1,460, Ruth's is 1,480, if adjusted for all time, Bonds as a near 100 run edge. Bonds career WARP3: 241.6. Ruth: 237.6.

I wouldn't put much stock in BP's proprietary stats such as WARP3 and BAA.

There are other well known transparent stats that can be used. Here are two that give Ruth the edge-RC/27 and Win Shares that are listed below in a comparison of the two that I recently read:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=70aa50d3-bf2b-4355-a823-d6f9d39bade8

"You can't hit what you can't see".

1920 was the year that Ray Chapman was killed by a Carl Mays fastball. That changed things overnight.

Before then, players used dirt, liquorice, and chewing tobacco to make the balls as dark as possible so it was harder for the hitter to pick up. Also, spitballs were still legal (banned in 1921).

This all changed overnight after Chapman was killed. Fresh baseballs were now being put into play routinely (1920). Then in 1925, a "cushioned-cork" baseball was introduced that was a little livelier.

Homerun outputs went up overall but Ruth still outpaced everyone by a lot.

[Avsfan]

I wouldn't put much stock in BP's proprietary stats such as WARP3 and BAA.

There are other well known transparent stats that can be used. Here are two that give Ruth the edge-RC/27 and Win Shares that are listed below in a comparison of the two that I recently read:

Ok...and Ruth never had an RC/27 over 18.....Bonds did it twice.

[mweb]

I wouldn't put much stock in BP's proprietary stats such as WARP3 and BAA.

There are other well known transparent stats that can be used. Here are two that give Ruth the edge-RC/27 and Win Shares that are listed below in a comparison of the two that I recently read:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=70aa50d3-bf2b-4355-a823-d6f9d39bade8

"You can't hit what you can't see".

1920 was the year that Ray Chapman was killed by a Carl Mays fastball. That changed things overnight.

Before then, players used dirt, liquorice, and chewing tobacco to make the balls as dark as possible so it was harder for the hitter to pick up. Also, spitballs were still legal (banned in 1921).

This all changed overnight after Chapman was killed. Fresh baseballs were now being put into play routinely (1920). Then in 1925, a "cushioned-cork" baseball was introduced that was a little livelier.

Homerun outputs went up overall but Ruth still outpaced everyone by a lot.

That's fine that those two stats support Ruth, I'm not telling you Bonds is better.

Ruth was ahead of the curve in terms of hr's, he started hitting them at unbelievable rates for the time, and then others started catching up. Hornsby lead MLB in hr's in 1922 with 42, in '23, Cy Williams tied Ruth with 41, and then guys like Gehrig, Hack Wilson, and Foxx came along. Ruth was still incredible vs his peers, and I love the fact that he out-homered entire teams. However, once others caught up to the curve, the advantage wasn't absurd like it was those first 2 years.

[RShack]

Aaron is a known "cheater", he took greenies.

Your entire premise seems to be that past players eating greenies equals "cheating". But you're just making that up now, and applying it retroactively. For decades, greenies were a normal and accepted part of the game. Everybody had an idea what greenies are and do, and they were accepted in the same way that other aspects of the training room were accepted. Now, all-the-sudden, they're not. It's all a reaction to 'roids. It's crazy to take this new greenies-are-bad attitude and go back and rewrite history with it. Aaron may well have taken greenies, but that does not mean the man cheated.

.

[mweb]

Your entire premise seems to be that past players eating greenies equals "cheating". But you're just making that up now, and applying it retroactively. For decades, greenies were a normal and accepted part of the game. Everybody had an idea what greenies are and do, and they were accepted in the same way that other aspects of the training room were accepted. Now, all-the-sudden, they're not. It's all a reaction to 'roids. It's crazy to take this new greenies-are-bad attitude and go back and rewrite history with it. Aaron may well have taken greenies, but that does not mean the man cheated.

.

Steroids were pretty much accepted in baseball too.