Gunnar and Westburg record

[Sports Guy]

 

[HowAboutThat]

Extend them both, and do it yesterday. Westburg will always be the true unexpected treasure of that draft.

[RZNJ]

Hmmm.  I have to imagine it’s the 10 triples that made the difference.   Gotta figure a fair amount of old timers did the doubles and home runs.  Gehrig and Ruth probably multiple times.

[MurphDogg]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Hmmm.  I have to imagine it’s the 10 triples that made the difference.   Gotta figure a fair amount of old timers did the doubles and home runs.  Gehrig and Ruth probably multiple times.

They didn't begin holding an All Star Game until 1933, and 2024's ASG was the latest in the season that the All Star Game has ever been held, both by calendar date and days into the season, as the season starts two weeks earlier than it did back in those days.

Thus, players have played 10-20 more games before the All Star Break than in previous seasons, especially those more than about 20 years ago, after which Opening Day in March has been the norm.

I have been annoyed reading about all the pre-all Star records over the last couple weeks that don't acknowledge these facts.

Edited July 19 by MurphDogg

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't want this to come off as negative, they're obviously both excellent players, they're young, they're Orioles, and they've had very good first halves of the season. I'm beyond thrilled we have them.

But you know I'm naturally skeptical of these "lets group some random stuff together to prove our guys are uniquely great!" observations.

First half of 1961 Mantle and Maris combined for 19 doubles, four triples, but 62 homers. That's pretty good, too. First half of '27 Ruth and Gehrig combined for 33 doubles, 11 triples, and 58 homers. First half of '01 Bonds and Kent combined for 42 doubles, five triples, and 51 homers. In '25 Kiki Cuyler and Max Carey combined for 50 doubles, 22 triples and 13 homers. The second half of 1912 Honus Wagner and Chief Wilson had 29 doubles, 31(!) triples, and 13 homers. In 1937 the Homestead Grays played just 51 games, and Josh Gibson and Buck Leonard combined for 28 doubles, 10 triples, and 33 homers.

Edited July 19 by DrungoHazewood

[DrungoHazewood]

39 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Hmmm.  I have to imagine it’s the 10 triples that made the difference.   Gotta figure a fair amount of old timers did the doubles and home runs.  Gehrig and Ruth probably multiple times.

Prior to WWII it was much less likely that multiple teammates had a lot of homers. But far more likely that 3, 4, 5 guys would have 10+ triples on the year*. But as always with these kind of lists, you have to assume the cutoffs were specifically chosen so the subject of interest looks best.

Although 40/10/40 is a lot cleaner than the typical "our guys were the first ever to hit at least .302 with 37 homers, 22 doubles, 9 intentional walks, and less than 11 caught stealing!"

* The 1894 Orioles are tied with the '91 Phils with seven different players with at least 10 triples in a season, most ever. 176 teams have had four+ players with double digit triples, but the last one was the 1940 Red Sox. They 2019 Royals are the only team since 1985 to have three.

Edited July 19 by DrungoHazewood

[Too Tall]

Boras is pleased! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[RZNJ]

11 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Prior to WWII it was much less likely that multiple teammates had a lot of homers. But far more likely that 3, 4, 5 guys would have 10+ triples on the year. But as always with these kind of lists, you have to assume the cutoffs were specifically chosen so the subject of interest looks best.

Although 40/10/40 is a lot cleaner than the typical "our guys were the first ever to hit at least .302 with 37 homers, 22 doubles, 9 intentional walks, and less than 11 caught stealing!"

1927 - First half determined by BRef.

Lou Gehrig - 82 G, 28 2B, 11 3B, 29 HR

 Babe Ruth -  78 G, 17 2B, 3 3B, 26 HR

The all-star game didn’t start until 1933.   

[MurphDogg]

14 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

First half of '27 Ruth and Gehrig combined for 33 doubles, 11 triples, and 58 homers. 

And as I pointed out above, the Orioles aren't halfway through their season, they are 96 games into their season.

Through 96 team games in 1927, Ruth and Gehrig combined for 53 doubles, 17 triples, and 65 homers.

[DrungoHazewood]

25 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

And as I pointed out above, the Orioles aren't halfway through their season, they are 96 games into their season.

Through 96 team games in 1927, Ruth and Gehrig combined for 53 doubles, 17 triples, and 65 homers.

Yep. One flaw of "first half" is that it's not a specific number of games, but either a) when the All Star game happens, or b) some approximation thereof by bb-ref. Also seasons aren't always 162 games, especially prior to 1961. For most of baseball history first half was approximately 80 games.

Also, for some years in the late 50s and early 60s there were two All Star games, and I don't really know where bb-ref puts the halfway marker.

Edited July 19 by DrungoHazewood

[spiritof66]

41 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

1927 - First half determined by BRef.

Lou Gehrig - 82 G, 28 2B, 11 3B, 29 HR

 Babe Ruth -  78 G, 17 2B, 3 3B, 26 HR

The all-star game didn’t start until 1933.   

Ruth was 38 at the time of the first All-Star game in 1933. That was his next-to last-season with the NYs. In the 73 ganes before the first All-Star break, he and Gehrig combined for 32 doubles (24 by Gehrig), 5 triples (4 by Gehrig) and 45 HRs (18 from Ruth). 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, MurphDogg said:

They didn't begin holding an All Star Game until 1933, and 2024's ASG was the latest in the season that the All Star Game has ever been held, both by calendar date and days into the season, as the season starts two weeks earlier than it did back in those days.

Thus, players have played 10-20 more games before the All Star Break than in previous seasons, especially those more than about 20 years ago, after which Opening Day in March has been the norm.

I have been annoyed reading about all the pre-all Star records over the last couple weeks that don't acknowledge these facts.

Solid points.

[Fiver6565]

Obviously the stats are not all that meaningful for the reasons outlined. Still, every comparison in this thread is to Ruth and Gehrig. Meaningful stat or not, that’s heady company for these young Os. 

[DrungoHazewood]

3 hours ago, MurphDogg said:

...especially those more than about 20 years ago, after which Opening Day in March has been the norm.

For many years opening day was around the 13th, 14th of April. Around 1970 it moved back to roughly the 5th-7th. March wasn't broached until the mid-90s.

The 1901 AL Orioles opened on April 26th. The first Orioles game ever, for the American Association team in 1882, was on May 2nd.

The first league, the 1871 National Association, had a schedule that ended up going from May 4th through October 30th despite no postseason play and the average team playing about 26 total games.

Edited July 19 by DrungoHazewood

[DrungoHazewood]

20 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

Obviously the stats are not all that meaningful for the reasons outlined. Still, every comparison in this thread is to Ruth and Gehrig. Meaningful stat or not, that’s heady company for these young Os. 

In the first half of the 1932 season Don Hurst and Chuck Klein of the Phils combined for 47 doubles, 15 triples, and 36 homers, you've never heard of Don Hurst, and the Phils finished two games over .500.

Edited July 19 by DrungoHazewood