8/11 @Tampa Bay

[HowAboutThat]

3 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Actually today the complaining didn't start before the decision was made, or even after it was made today.

After the 6th, a bunch of people said that they thought Suarez was done for the day.   I think someone said they might let him have one or two batters in the 7th, but that someone should be ready in the pen.    And there wasn't a lot of complaining when he was taken out.

He had thrown 94 pitches.   His high all year was 97, so committing to one more batter would have been most likely putting him higher than he has gone all year.   AND he was on 4 days rest, the most pitches he had ever thrown on 4 days rest this year was 89, so he was already well beyond that.   The few times he has gone 90+ this year, he was on 5 or 6 days rest.   And don't forget that before he pitched Tuesday, he was pitching on just 3 days rest after a long bullpen stint the previous Friday.   And I know  you were upset he got taken out when he did Tuesday.   If Hyde had followed your desieres last Tuesday, Suarez probably would have not been able to last even as long as he did today.

I think we got every bit as much as we could possibly have hoped for our ot Suarez.   A guy that most people on this board don't think is good enough to be in a contender's rotaiton.  We squeezed 20 outs out of him by having him throw as many pitches on normal rest as he has all year.

That left 7 outs for the bullpen, and considering who we have and who is available, Hyde pretty much used the best guys he had at his disposal to get the 7 outs.   And those guys failed miserably.   If he had brought in Baker or Soto or Akin and they had screwed up everyone would be saying he was an idiot for that.   I would guess the he was saving Burch Smith for the 9th.

We got beat.   We got beat because our offense was held to 1 run for the first time since before the break.   We got beat because two guys out of the pen failed miserably at their job.   Yet there are tons of posts about how horrible Hyde is.   It's way over the top.

 

I appreciate your comment, but I still disagree. He started the inning at 84, threw 11 excellent pitches to 95, which was STILL under his season limit, and another 5-7 pitches were completely reasonable. 100 pitches isn’t significant, considering how well the first 95 had gone. I mean, yes, it’s a lot, but he’s been terrific, so why not?

If he starts walking guys in the previous inning, or giving up tons of fly balls, or really hard contact, then sure. But he wasn’t. I reiterate there was no indication he couldn’t handle a few more pitches.

It is indeed possible that if he’d thrown another inning on Tuesday, he wouldn’t have been able to start the 7th today( and we’d likely have won, too.) but regardless, that’s moot, because he didn’t.

Hyde IS bad. He’s been making objectively bad decisions for years. I want him to go.  Lots of people want him to go, and some of that group have defensible reasons.

 

[dtk9119]

Bottom line is this team SUCKS at holding and throwing out runners. Teams are gonna run all over their slow a**** in the post season. 

[accinfo]

2 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

 

Hyde IS bad. He’s been making objectively bad decisions for years. I want him to go.  Lots of people want him to go, and some of that group have defensible reasons.

 

He is not bad and he isn’t going anywhere despite what a couple angry posters here on OH want.  He is the reigning Manager of the Year and is in the top 3 to win it again.

[Wavetrapper]

7 minutes ago, SteveA said:

We got beat.   We got beat because our offense was held to 1 run for the first time since before the break.   We got beat because two guys out of the pen failed miserably at their job.   Yet there are tons of posts about how horrible Hyde is.   It's way over the top.

 

I’m sorry, it’s not way over the top.  
 

If, by now, Hyde hasn’t learned that Job One this year is to do whatever he can to minimize the number of batters that these relievers face in a close game - then there is no hope for the guy.  How many times do these guys have to let him down before it sinks in.  This is a horrible horrible bullpen.  Even if it means pushing a starter who’s doing well for a few more pitches or an inning, you do it.  
 

Secondly, if he hasn’t learned by now that Kimbrel is the absolute worst choice* when the game’s on the line  again….no hope for the guy.   Yes, the other choices suck too but Kimbrel is a sure fail.  Hyde’s decision to use Kimbrel in that situation ensured there would be no 9th inning for Smith.  
 

Like our football coach across the street, I don’t think he has much in terms of game awareness.  
 

*(One could argue Soto has this honor, but he hasn’t distinguished himself quite like Kimbrel has)

[SteveA]

9 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

I appreciate your comment, but I still disagree. He started the inning at 84, threw 11 excellent pitches to 95, which was STILL under his season limit, and another 5-7 pitches were completely reasonable. 100 pitches isn’t significant, considering how well the first 95 had gone. I mean, yes, it’s a lot, but he’s been terrific, so why not?

If he starts walking guys in the previous inning, or giving up tons of fly balls, or really hard contact, then sure. But he wasn’t. I reiterate there was no indication he couldn’t handle a few more pitches.

It is indeed possible that if he’d thrown another inning on Tuesday, he wouldn’t have been able to start the 7th today( and we’d likely have won, too.) but regardless, that’s moot, because he didn’t.

Hyde IS bad. He’s been making objectively bad decisions for years. I want him to go.  Lots of people want him to go, and some of that group have defensible reasons.

 

You say over and over again that he makes "objectively" bad decisions.   And basically what that means is that you disagree with them.   Or that they didn't work.   (Without knowing whether the alternative would have worked better).

Like it or not, modern baseball is a slave to the pitch count.   You can complain about it, just like John Smoltz did all night on the broadcast.   But that's where we are.   The fact is that the REAL decision was whether to let him pitch the 7th at all or not.   And Hyde made that decision but decided he wasn't going to go over about 95 pitches, which was already more than he had thown on four days rest all year. 

You can call that a bad decision if you want, you can say that being a slave to these pitch count and pitcher usage stats is wrong.   John Smoltz says the same thing.   But I am pretty sure that it is what Elias and company WANT their manager to be doing.   And you can't call it an "objectively bad decision" without providing proof.   The fact that it turned out badly because a decent reliever couldn't get one out without allowing a run doens't prove it was bad.  

I have criticized Hyde for making too many pitching changes.   But we got 20 outs out of a guy that most people thinks stinks and wishes wasn't in our rotation today who was right up against the most pitches he had thrown all year, on regular rest after pitching on short rest vbefore that.   I'm not going to be too critical in this case.    

We have the best record in baseball despite having only two reliable starters and what was an OK bullpen but has become a bad one because it's lost two of its best pitchers and Kimbrel is losing it right now as well.   Hyde has done a great job to get us where we are.

[HowAboutThat]

13 minutes ago, SteveA said:

WHO did you want to use there?   Akin?  Soto?  Baker?   Burch Smith?   If you use Smith there, who did you want to use in the 9th?

If you are going to criticize the manager, at least have a pair of balls and say what you would have done.    Saying "no one in their right mind puts Kimbrel in that spot" is utterly useless criticixm unless you say who you would have had in there.   And you know what?   If he had brought in Baiker instead and they had hit him and gotten a run, you would probably be calling Hyde an idiot for using Baker and saying no one should be using Baker there.

I’m intruding on this exchange, but it is a fair question, so I’d like a stab at answering.

If Suarez had been allowed to finish the 7th inning, I would have opened the 8th with whomever has the best combination of rest and performance. So “the rested hot hand.” Perez had 15 pitches yesterday, only SIX for strikes, and allowed an inherited run to score. So he is NEITHER: not rested OR hot.

I honestly don’t know the limit on pitching consecutive days, so I don’t know whether 15 pitches is pushing it or not. But Perez was bad yesterday. Do you really think he’s your best option in a 1-run game? Every reliever yesterday threw between 14-18 pitches, but nobody threw fewer strikes than Cionel, and only Dominguez had a BB, while Perez had two. So there’s NO reason to bring him in again today.

Who, then? To start the inning. Not Soto, certainly. Baker, Kimbrel or Akin, but Kimbrel has to throw at some point, whether the 8th or 9th. if ~15 pitches doesn’t render a guy unavailable, then only Cano and Dominguez, who pitched Friday and Saturday, are unavailable.

With that in mind, Hyde chose the worst available reliever. Baker threw 1.1 innings/16 pitches on the 8th, with 12 strikes, so he’s available, and a RHP, too.

So, no reason to bring in Perez. Every reason not to, even if you have to throw him out there if you go to extras.

[HowAboutThat]

5 minutes ago, SteveA said:

You say over and over again that he makes "objectively" bad decisions.   And basically what that means is that you disagree with them.   Or that they didn't work.   (Without knowing whether the alternative would have worked better).

Like it or not, modern baseball is a slave to the pitch count.   You can complain about it, just like John Smoltz did all night on the broadcast.   But that's where we are.   The fact is that the REAL decision was whether to let him pitch the 7th at all or not.   And Hyde made that decision but decided he wasn't going to go over about 95 pitches, which was already more than he had thown on four days rest all year. 

You can call that a bad decision if you want, you can say that being a slave to these pitch count and pitcher usage stats is wrong.   John Smoltz says the same thing.   But I am pretty sure that it is what Elias and company WANT their manager to be doing.   And you can't call it an "objectively bad decision" without providing proof.   The fact that it turned out badly because a decent reliever couldn't get one out without allowing a run doens't prove it was bad.  

I have criticized Hyde for making too many pitching changes.   But we got 20 outs out of a guy that most people thinks stinks and wishes wasn't in our rotation today who was right up against the most pitches he had thrown all year, on regular rest after pitching on short rest vbefore that.   I'm not going to be too critical in this case.    

We have the best record in baseball despite having only two reliable starters and what was an OK bullpen but has become a bad one because it's lost two of its best pitchers and Kimbrel is losing it right now as well.   Hyde has done a great job to get us where we are.

Haven’t yet gotten past your second sentence. “Objectively” means that a neutral third party would agree that it was a bad decision. And yes, they are bad, not because I say they are, but because they were bad at the time. Just like Today, bringing in Perez was a bad decision.

I covered it in my other comment to you just now, so no need to reiterate.

The team is where it is despite Hyde. He was making objectively bad decisions  all season. We should reasonable have 4-5 additional wins that he coughed up with objectively bad decisions.

The Royals won the 2015 WS with Ned Yost, a manager so dumb, the fans coined a word for a a loss that resulted from his inept managing: “Yosted.”

But they won the World Series…

[SteveA]

3 minutes ago, Wavetrapper said:

I’m sorry, it’s not way over the top.  
 

If, by now, Hyde hasn’t learned that Job One this year is to do whatever he can to minimize the number of batters that these relievers face in a close game - then there is no hope for the guy.  How many times do these guys have to let him down before it sinks in.  This is a horrible horrible bullpen.  Even if it means pushing a starter who’s doing well for a few more pitches or an inning, you do it.  
 

Secondly, if he hasn’t learned by now that Kimbrel is the absolute worst choice* when the game’s on the line  again….no hope for the guy.   Yes, the other choices suck too but Kimbrel is a sure fail.  Hyde’s decision to use Kimbrel in that situation ensured there would be no 9th inning for Smith.  
 

Like our football coach across the street, I don’t think he has much in terms of game awareness.  
 

*(One could argue Soto has this honor, but he hasn’t distinguished himself quite like Kimbrel has)

Kimbrel isn't a "sure fail."  We've won 36 of the 47 games he has pitched in.   He's held the opponent scoreless in 34 of 47 games he has pitched in.    And I realize that isn't great.   But if you are trying to have a logical argument, then talking about "sure fails" is just emotional BS.   Keegan Akin has held the opponent scoreless in 35/49 appearances -- about the same as Kimbrel.   Bryan Baker in 9/15, a worse percentage.   Soto... well, I'm not going to do that research.  

The truth is that Kimbrel was going to pitch in this game.   If he is in the bullpen, he is going to be used, especially on a day when two of our better relievers had pitched two days in a row and were unavailable.    Doesn't matter who was managing, he was going to be used.   Ranting about Hyde choosing to use Kimbreal like it's some awful decision is not rational.   

He went into the game with a plan of what pitchers he was going to use where to try to cover 27 outs.    Just guessing it was something like:

   -- if I can't get 18 outs out of Suarez, then Akin and Baker will be in the first 6 innings
   -- If I can get at least 18 outs out of Suarez, then the remaining outs will be divided among Perez, Kimbrel, and Smith.   Probably in that order but maybe Kimbrel first if there are righties due when it comes time to remove Suarez.   Baker/Akin then are saved for extra innings or if a reliever gets destroyed for 5 runs and the game is out of hand.

And given the shitshow that our bullpen is, I thnk that was a reasonable plan.   Sitting there and saying it's a white flag to bring in Kimbrel or that hte game is a sure loss... that's emotioanl fan crap.   That's not how a manager thinks.   And i don't want a manager who thinks that way.

Yeah, he certainly could have pushed Suarez for one more out.   But expecting Perez to get one out is not that unreasaonble.   And Suarez woudl likely have gone over his season high for pitches.   i think he felt he was pushing him by even bringing him out for the 7th at all.   We can debate that managers pay too much attention to pitch count, but that is where the game is today and I'm pretty sure that is also something that Elias and Sig insist on.

[SteveA]

4 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

Haven’t yet gotten past your second sentence. “Objectively” means that a neutral third party would agree that it was a bad decision. And yes, they are bad, not because I say they are, but because they were bad at the time. Just like Today, bringing in Perez was a bad decision.

I covered it in my other comment to you just now, so no need to reiterate.

The team is where it is despite Hyde. He was making objectively bad decisions  all season. We should reasonable have 4-5 additional wins that he coughed up with objectively bad decisions.

The Royals won the 2015 WS with Ned Yost, a manager so dumb, the fans coined a word for a a loss that resulted from his inept managing: “Yosted.”

But they won the World Series…

How was bringing Perez in an objectively bad decision?   Because it didn't work?

To objectively measure it, you would have to figure out what % of the time Perez would get out of the inning without giving up a run.  I would guess around 90.   Now what percentt of the inning would Suarez get out of the inning if you left him in without giving up a run.   Probably 95?   OK, so he slightly increased the chance of giving up a run to tie the game.   Slightly.   Which in turn ncreased our chaces of losing.   But how do you objectively evaluate having a guy throw more pitches htan he has all year?   Does it increase the chances of him getting hurt by X%?   I don't know.   Does it make it X% more likely that he will struggle in his next start?   I don't know.

To OBJECTIVELY  debate the decision you would have to know all those percentages and how they would affect that game, and the rest of the season.      And we simply don't know those numbers.

So no, it was not an objectively bad decision.   It's your OPINION  that it was a bad decision.   And a lot of people share that.   In my opionion, it was a borderline decision that is defensible, if you accept the modern day baseball devotion to pitch counts and pitcher usage restrictions.

 

[Wavetrapper]

All I know is that Kimbrel has been beyond unreliable for a long time .    I feel certain that less than 5% of observers would have made him their first choice in that situation.  Hyde/Elias may have made a “damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead” decision on the SS Kimbrel .   Others may be okay with that plan .
 

I’m not   

 

[Baseball fandom]

Yes Kimbrell with another bad outing what's new but the problem I have is with this offense. How they can look so great for like 2 games then go in the tank the next 5. This team drafted a lot of offensive players vs pitchers over the years it's  time for them to start being more consistent with their performance. 

[Wavetrapper]

1 minute ago, Baseball fandom said:

Yes Kimbrell with another bad outing what's new but the problem I have is with this offense. How they can look so great for like 2 games then go in the tank the next 5. This team drafted a lot of offensive players vs pitchers over the years it's  time for them to start being more consistent with their performance. 

No argument there.   A lot of disappointment throughout the lineup.   
 

But these low scoring tight games are going to happen.   Finding the pitching combinations to blow them late in the game is becoming a well developed skill.