Bullpen acquisition/investment is the FO’s responsibility

[Moose Milligan]

I’ve always enjoyed it when posters on message boards hold GMs/managers/players “accountable.”  

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Aristotelian said:

Which quality 8th inning guy was available for less than the $10m or so we committed to Kimbrel?

Why were FAs the only option? Elias has a stable full of MLB-ready guys he could have traded for solid contributors.

And of course, in December at least he knew about Means’ injury setback, so if nothing else, would have had to use Wells in the rotation and therefore would need another potent arm, in addition to a replacement for Bautista.

It is possible he tried and got nothing but impossible demands from the seller, but based on how the trade deadline ended up, I don’t think that was true, overall.

I think Elias just wants to get credit for being the best dumpster diver in the business, and his desire to find gold in the trash can overwhelms everything else.

Also, last offseason the team was still owned by Angelos, who probably would have out the kibosh on a lot of FA spending, but would have been more amendable to trades.

So there’s every reason to have made trades for relievers, and yet Elias didn’t.

its not even six months into the new ownership era, so too soon to make final judgement on Elias, but so far, doesn’t look great.

 

edit: OVERALL, Elias has been miraculous. I’m only referring to his ability to recognize and address the need to acquire meaningful pieces instead of flotsam and jetsam, and hope it works

Edited August 21 by HowAboutThat

[Aristotelian]

22 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

We're paying Kimbrel $13m. Using that as a litmus and somebody that was a quality pitcher in 2023, here are some arms. I think if we are to believe that the reason Elias didn't pickup a reliever for more is because some of the better arms were apparently looking for longer deals, then let's stick with guys that have 1 year deals:

• David Robertson - $11.5m
• Kirby Yates - $4.5m
• Nick Martinez - $14m + player option for 2025
• Brent Suter - $2.75m
• Jakob Junis - $7m (converted from starter to reliever in 2023)
• Emilio Pagan - $8.25m + player option for 2025
• Jesse Chavez - $740k, that said he's 40 y/o

I'm not going to count Chapman, because the dood is a scumbag. But if you want to, he was $10.5m. 

There were a bunch of other options that had decent/good 2023s, but have been bad in 2024, so not really listing those. 

That is a pretty good list. Yates was obviously a great deal in hindsight. On paper he had a similar profile to Kimbrel (high Ks but walks a lot) but more injuries. I don't remember anyone clamoring for him and I  can see why Elias stayed away.

Robertson turned out good. Hard to fault anyone for passing on a 39 year old.

Martinez doesn't count due to the player option.

Suter, Pagan, and Chavez... Meh. 

So yeah, Elias whiffed on Robertson and Yates but I can see why. Either of those guys could have turned out just as badly.

 

[HowAboutThat]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I’ve always enjoyed it when posters on message boards hold GMs/managers/players “accountable.”  

What is wrong with Frobby’s comment? It only means that he agrees/thinks that the bullpen personnel being terrible is Elias’ responsibility. Agree or not, that’s a reasonable and entirely defensible position.

And to those who disagree, I’d ask who IS responsible, if Elias isn’t? Yes, we have injuries, but they aren’t new, and Elias has had several months to deal with them.

Hyde has to juggle, and he doesn’t juggle very well, but it’s doubly hard when the choices are so poor 

[InsideCoroner]

19 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I’ve always enjoyed it when posters on message boards hold GMs/managers/players “accountable.”  

I wrote an “open letter” to Peter Angelos once imploring him to sell the team. Not even thirty years later, he acquiesced. You’re all welcome. Star strong. Eventually this whole nightmare of a Rubenstein/Elias/Hyde era will be over!

Edited August 21 by InsideCoroner

[Moose Milligan]

23 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

What is wrong with Frobby’s comment? It only means that he agrees/thinks that the bullpen personnel being terrible is Elias’ responsibility. Agree or not, that’s a reasonable and entirely defensible position.

And to those who disagree, I’d ask who IS responsible, if Elias isn’t? Yes, we have injuries, but they aren’t new, and Elias has had several months to deal with them.

Hyde has to juggle, and he doesn’t juggle very well, but it’s doubly hard when the choices are so poor 

I find the wording funny because there’s nothing we as fans can do to actually “hold Elias accountable” outside of griping on this message board. And maybe not buying tickets to games. But that’s about it. 
 

I never said it wasn’t Elias’ fault. It absolutely is. 

[LookitsPuck]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I find the wording funny because there’s nothing we as fans can do to actually “hold Elias accountable” outside of griping on this message board. And maybe not buying tickets to games. But that’s about it. 
 

I never said it wasn’t Elias’ fault. It absolutely is. 

I'd say I went from being overly positive on Elias to coming down a few levels to still think he's been the best GM I've ever witnessed for the O's, but now I can clearly say where the warts are. But I want to hedge - I don't know if those warts are entirely because of Angelos or not. But I do think he wants to be the most clever GM in the room when it comes to things on the margins and not ever overspending or overcommitting. 

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I find the wording funny because there’s nothing we as fans can do to actually “hold Elias accountable” outside of griping on this message board. And maybe not buying tickets to games. But that’s about it. 
 

I never said it wasn’t Elias’ fault. It absolutely is. 

That is all I meant in this instance.  I agree with your general comment about that wording.  

[bpilktree67]

2 hours ago, Spy Fox said:

The rotation decimation has hurt the pen too. Not only because a guy like Wells could possibly help the pen, but because with a healthier rotation you may not need to spend prospects on both Eflin/Rogers, and that trade capital might go towards the bullpen. 

But, I do agree with the thread premise anyway.  1) More could have been done to bring in known high impact arms, 2) They also haven't succeeded this year at pulling a Cano/Coulombe type off the scrap heap to be that impact guy.

I agree 100%. 
Before the year started we had some good depth even if there was a bit of questions.   There plan was most likely to see what they would need in the pen at the deadline.  They figured they would use there draft capital to fill a hole or two. In January they had the following guys for bullpen and starters.  
1. Burnes 

2. Bradish
3. GRod 

4. Means

5. Kremer

6. Kimbrel

7. Cano

8. Perez

9. Coulumbe

10 Webb

11. Wells 

12. Baumann 

13. Tate 

14. Aiken 

15.  Baker

16. Irvin 

17. Vespi.  

18. Povich

19. McDermott 

20.  Suarez 
 21. Heasley

Now not all those guys are great but if used in right situations could help the team.  You can only keep about 22 pitchers on the 40 man and some of those guys are part of the shuttle   They most likely thought they would lose 3-5 guys out of the 21 from injury then use draft capital to either get a starter or a bullpen piece.  Unfortunately we lost 6 of the top 11 to injury it isn’t like we just lost the bottom guys but the guys you count on and Kimbrel has been bad, Baumann was let go because we didn’t have room for him when we were healthier and without options and would have been ok as the last man in pen.  

[Moose Milligan]

Elias is still the best GM we've had in my lifetime.  And while I get a lot of people are upset about how this season is shaking out, I'm still not all that upset about it.

Worst case scenario, this season continues to go down the crapper and we miss the playoffs.  Best case, we win the whole thing.  I suspect somewhere in the middle is what'll actually happen.  

Maybe this season should serve as a reminder to some fans that this wasn't going to be a smooth ride after the "rebuild was over."  I do think some got out over their skis and seemed to think we'd be perennial AL East champions all the time, that we were going to be loaded with young talent forever, that we had a GM who was the smartest in the game (all of a sudden it's a bad thing, right?) and now we've got an owner who'll spend, spend, spend and we're going to be an elite team with elite talent for a long time and the 2017 through 2021 seasons are firmly in our rearview mirror shrinking all the time.  We've avoided major injuries for what seems like years on end and no one ever stopped to think that we'd keep spinning that wheel and landing on Bankrupt could happen.

Maybe this season should serve as a reminder that drafting, scouting and developing talent is probably harder than we think, that building a bullpen is probably harder than we think and that Elias isn't bulletproof but he's still a damn good GM.  Really, is there anyone else you'd want in the front office?  

Maybe this season should serve as a reminder that no matter what trades you make and what guys you sign, you really need a whole hell of a lot of luck...not just in the playoffs but getting through all 162 games.  And maybe this is the season where our luck just ran out.  

 

[bpilktree67]

The pitching had an ERA at about 3.5 up til mid of June that is with Wells, Kremer and GRod missing some time and then in week span we lost Bradish, Means, Coulumbe to join them.  Since then we are just under 5.  The front office must have been good early on but then got really bad or it was the injuries.  

[milbest77]

I will scream this from the mountain tops. Elias was not brought here to win championships. He was brought to slash payroll. Hired by Angelos. Remember all the “moving to Nashville” talk? IMO, Elias is not the guy to get this team to the next level. He’s not a Dombrowski type that will go all-in for a WS. I have a feeling the new owners will bring in their own guys sooner than later, which may or may not be a good thing. 
 

Ok, commence the stone-throwing!

[Jagwar]

O's have 8 pitchers on the IL and another on paternity leave and some want to rip into Elias for not having a good bullpen.

Gotta love the hangout.

[jabba72]

7 minutes ago, milbest77 said:

I will scream this from the mountain tops. Elias was not brought here to win championships. He was brought to slash payroll. Hired by Angelos. Remember all the “moving to Nashville” talk? IMO, Elias is not the guy to get this team to the next level. He’s not a Dombrowski type that will go all-in for a WS. I have a feeling the new owners will bring in their own guys sooner than later, which may or may not be a thing. 
 

Ok, commence the stone-throwing!

The bullpen is faltering but its mostly due to injuries. I wouldnt trust any new GM to come in and raise the bar over what Elias has done. Far from it. I'd almost expect things to go downhill immediately. 

[OriolesUpAndDowns]

This is where the lack of even developing a reliever through the draft hurts.  There is no quality controllable options