Should Rubenstein relieve Mike Elias of his duties?

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

SG was talking about me, and it’s clear, as I said, that to this point, McDermott has been non-productive. At the time of the trade, Mancini had real value. Not a lot, but more than zero, and as I also said, any value from the trade to this point was whatever we got for Johnson.

Mcdermott may turn out to be something, but he hasn’t yet.

Mancini didn’t have that much value. You either are that clueless or weren’t watching him play that year before he got traded. He then continues to be even worse. 
 

Zero teams would look at that deal and say yea, I would rather have Mancini and not done that trade.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Tony..I quoted the person saying it.

That trade was clearly an Orioles win

I'm really not arguing against that trade and I do think that trade was a good one, for no other reason than to free up at bats that Mancini was going to take. But, until a player does something at the major league level, you can't say it ended up a great trade IMHO. 

It will be hard to judge if McDermott never does anything at the major league level (which if he's healthy, is not likely since I do like him in a relief role) since Seth Johnson was part of a package to get Soto. If Soto becomes good, it could be argued that Johnson helped land him so anything Soto does is a win against trading Mancini.

Just to be clear, I was for that trade and like the return at the time, so I do think that was a goo trade. I just think you can't "win" a trade unless the players do something for you at the major league level because you can argue that maybe selecting other players would have helped more. We'll never know because we'll never know the possibilities, so all we can judge is value to the team at the major league level.

[Big Mac]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

WTF?

Yes, those 3 and Kremer is absolutely plenty to get to the playoffs.  The Os would definitely be in first place if those guys don’t get hurt. Those 4 are arguably the best 4 starters in any rotation around the league.

Hell, if Burnes pitches the way he’s supposed to in August, they may be in first place.

If Burnes pitches well and those 2 guys don’t get hurt, we don’t even know Roger’s sucked.

The idea some have that it is essentially GM malpractice to have Kremer start games is one of the most out of touch views that I see not infrequently from some here. 

[Tony-OH]

8 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

SG was talking about me, and it’s clear, as I said, that to this point, McDermott has been non-productive. At the time of the trade, Mancini had real value. Not a lot, but more than zero, and as I also said, any value from the trade to this point was whatever we got for Johnson.

Mcdermott may turn out to be something, but he hasn’t yet.

In the end, Mancini's value was two pitching prospects which honestly, was more than I thought they could get for him. I do agree that players have to perform at the major league level to ultimately be a win.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm really not arguing against that trade and I do think that trade was a good one, for no other reason than to free up at bats that Mancini was going to take. But, until a player does something at the major league level, you can't say it ended up a great trade IMHO. 

It will be hard to judge if McDermott never does anything at the major league level (which if he's healthy, is not likely since I do like him in a relief role) since Seth Johnson was part of a package to get Soto. If Soto becomes good, it could be argued that Johnson helped land him so anything Soto does is a win against trading Mancini.

Just to be clear, I was for that trade and like the return at the time, so I do think that was a goo trade. I just think you can't "win" a trade unless the players do something for you at the major league level because you can argue that maybe selecting other players would have helped more. We'll never know because we'll never know the possibilities, so all we can judge is value to the team at the major league level.

McDermott has become a top 10-12 prospect in the top system in the league. He has shown a lot of upside and potential as a starter but probably a reliever.  If the Os wanted to trade him, his value is more than Mancini was when we traded him.

He seemed to be a guy that would have been on top 125 prospect lists by at least a few guys. 

I call that a win. 
 

 

Edited August 30 by Sports Guy

[HowAboutThat]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

WTF?

Yes, those 3 and Kremer is absolutely plenty to get to the playoffs.  The Os would definitely be in first place if those guys don’t get hurt. Those 4 are arguably the best 4 starters in any rotation around the league.

Hell, if Burnes pitches the way he’s supposed to in August, they may be in first place.

If Burnes pitches well and those 2 guys don’t get hurt, we don’t even know Roger’s sucked.

You realize that between August 1 and October 1 there’s still 60 games to play.

Assuming all is well with the bare three, especially when GRod has an injury history and was unlikely to finish the season without another IL stint, and Kremer is inconsistent, is foolish.

We absolutely needed another good starter, even after acquiring Eflin, even if Eflin/Grod hadn’t gone down.

 

 

 

[HowAboutThat]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

In the end, Mancini's value was two pitching prospects which honestly, was more than I thought they could get for him. I do agree that players have to perform at the major league level to ultimately be a win.

At the end of the day, value is the selling price. It’s useless to speculate what else Mancini could have garnered, but  he brought back McDermott and Johnson, and today, Johnson is gone, and McDermott is a non-producer. 

I’ve never said he wouldn’t produce, only that he hasn’t yet.

 

[e16bball]

2 hours ago, Prodigyx said:

After looking back at the Astros drafts from 2012 to 2017 it looks like he completely switched his draft strategy.  Which makes me wonder why. 

 Could it be with Angelos as the owner he knew we couldn't or wouldnt spend big money for pitching?

  Now with Rubenstein as the owner, could he be a little more willing to spend, so that could change his strategy going forward.

If I had watched my team select the following pitchers in the first 5 rounds during that span (2012-2017), I probably would have changed my strategy too.

1 (41). Lance McCullers

3 (96). Brady Rodgers

1 (1). Mark Appel

2 (40). Andrew Thurman

3 (74). Kent Emanuel

1 (1). Brady Aiken

4 (106). Daniel Mengden

5 (136). Jacob Nix

2 (46). Thomas Eshelman

3 (79). Riley Ferrell

5 (139). Trent Thornton

1 (17). Forrest Whitley

4 (127). Brett Adcock

1 (15). J.B. Bukauskas

2 (56). Corbin Martin

3 (91). Tyler Ivey

4 (121). Peter Solomon

That group of 17 draft picks over 6 years compiled a total of 11.1 rWAR. Worth noting that Lance McCullers himself put up…wait for it…11.1 rWAR. The rest of them combined for a grand total of 0.0 WAR. 

That history would be especially compelling when you factor in that they also drafted the following hitters during that period: Carlos Correa, Brett Phillips, Ramon Laureano, Tony Kemp, Alex Bregman, Kyle Tucker, Myles Straw, Jake Meyers, Chas McCormick, Josh Rojas, and a number of other guys who reached solid prospect status and were traded for contributors (e.g., Derek Fisher). Multiple HOFers who have had individuals seasons approaching the combined value of all those pitching picks, plus Tucker who was on pace to do the same this year before that errant foul ball.

[LookitsPuck]

3 minutes ago, e16bball said:

If I had watched my team select the following pitchers in the first 5 rounds during that span (2012-2017), I probably would have changed my strategy too.

1 (41). Lance McCullers

3 (96). Brady Rodgers

1 (1). Mark Appel

2 (40). Andrew Thurman

3 (74). Kent Emanuel

1 (1). Brady Aiken

4 (106). Daniel Mengden

5 (136). Jacob Nix

2 (46). Thomas Eshelman

3 (79). Riley Ferrell

5 (139). Trent Thornton

1 (17). Forrest Whitley

4 (127). Brett Adcock

1 (15). J.B. Bukauskas

2 (56). Corbin Martin

3 (91). Tyler Ivey

4 (121). Peter Solomon

That group of 17 draft picks over 6 years compiled a total of 11.1 rWAR. Worth noting that Lance McCullers himself put up…wait for it…11.1 rWAR. The rest of them combined for a grand total of 0.0 WAR. 

That history would be especially compelling when you factor in that they also drafted the following hitters during that period: Carlos Correa, Brett Phillips, Ramon Laureano, Tony Kemp, Alex Bregman, Kyle Tucker, Myles Straw, Jake Meyers, Chas McCormick, Josh Rojas, and a number of other guys who reached solid prospect status and were traded for contributors (e.g., Derek Fisher). Multiple HOFers who have had individuals seasons approaching the combined value of all those pitching picks, plus Tucker who was on pace to do the same this year before that errant foul ball.

Even more compelling when you looked at the gold they've hit in the international market for starters. 

Framber Valdez, Jose Urquidy, Luis Garcia, Cristian Javier. 

My goodness.

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, e16bball said:

If I had watched my team select the following pitchers in the first 5 rounds during that span (2012-2017), I probably would have changed my strategy too.

 

That makes it sound like he was just a bystander.  How many of those were his drafts?

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

You realize that between August 1 and October 1 there’s still 60 games to play.

Assuming all is well with the bare three, especially when GRod has an injury history and was unlikely to finish the season without another IL stint, and Kremer is inconsistent, is foolish.

We absolutely needed another good starter, even after acquiring Eflin, even if Eflin/Grod hadn’t gone down.

 

 

 

The Orioles were always making the playoffs. They didn’t need a 5th starter to get there. It’s absurd to think that.

They have half their team hurt right now and are still basically a lock to make the playoffs and all of those guys are coming back.  

[RZNJ]

57 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

Really? Whatever the offensive strategy is, is it working?

There’s strategy and then there’s execution.   You have no clue to what the actual strategy is and the results have been there overall so you’re lost on both counts.   That’s two strikes.   Why not go for one more?

[mrbig1]

I just want to see if we can resign Tony.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, mrbig1 said:

I just want to see if we can resign Tony.

I'm sure he can. 

[RZNJ]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The Orioles were always making the playoffs. They didn’t need a 5th starter to get there. It’s absurd to think that.

They have half their team hurt right now and are still basically a lock to make the playoffs and all of those guys are coming back.  

Typical SG post.   The Twins are 2-8 and the Red Sox are 4-6 in just their last 10 games.   We were ripe for the taking right around the deadline.   Fortunately, we managed and they didn’t take advantage.   If they had things could have been pretty tight heading into September.    Calling it absurd to think a flailing team could blow a 7 game cushion over two months is absurd.