Should Rubenstein relieve Mike Elias of his duties?

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Baseball fandom said:

I edit.

Yes if you think he's great that's your opinion. I think he is good not great. I stand by that.  I will say this it will be interesting in seeing what he does with support of ownership with deeper pockets. I just hope for no more Norby for Rogers trade that any of us "at the end of bar" fan wouldn't had made let alone an established GM should have. 

Nothing wrong with that trade (in a vacuum) and it’s way too early to judge it.

[Baseball fandom]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Nothing wrong with that trade (in a vacuum) and it’s way too early to judge it.

But many including myself hated that trade and early results so far certainly looks bad. 

[Moose Milligan]

Stowers has 6 RBI this week!  Fire Elias!

[Moose Milligan]

20 minutes ago, Baseball fandom said:

I' say no but let's please stop acting like he's the greatest thing since whatever.  I think he was on a great run the first few years but the last couple has been troubling to me.  That's my response. 

.

The last couple of years have been troubling to you?  Last year was troubling to you?

No one's acting like he's the greatest thing since whatever, that's just silly and hyperbole.  There's plenty of criticism levied at Elias on this board.  

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Baseball fandom said:

But many including myself hated that trade and early results so far certainly looks bad. 

I don’t care if some fans didn’t like it.  Many fans are wrong.

The trade itself was very reasonable. There are several reasons why you make that trade.

The question isn’t should they made the trade. The question is, was there a better trade to make?

By that I mean, could he have gotten a rental that gave us more right now value or could he have addressed the pen instead of a long term starter?

You can argue that he should have gone a different direction with those 2 players but we have no idea if he could have and if this was the best option he had, making the trade was better than not making it.

Even the early results are misleading (not that he was good but he was better than the results but bad luck and bad defense in a SSS didn’t help).

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Elias is easily the most important thing that has happened to this org in at least 25 years. It’s not even debatable. 

Probably more years honestly. 

No one should ever doubt Elias' role in turning this franchise around. 

The question that we will need to ask at some point (not even close to now), is he the guy that can take the team to the next level or sustain this level of success over 5-7 year span? 

He's now judged on his success on the major league diamond. He will be judged by how far his team goes in the playoffs. 

Now this season, depending on who returns from injury, I'm willing to give him a bit of a mulligan because of the injuries. He looks to have improved his team at the deadline with Eflin (assuming he doesn't miss significant time) and the two Phillies trades for Dominguez and Soto.

The Rogers trade though looks like he should fire his professional scouts, and the fact this team needs to to play Eloy and Slater speaks to its lack of depth at the upper levels in the hitting department, despite drafting mostly college hitters with his first 5 rounds since 2019.

Either way, I think we all agree that the Orioles, despite two months of absolute mediocrity, are still going to the playoffs and as we've seen, if they get hot then, no one will remember or care about these two months.

[Baseball fandom]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t care if some fans didn’t like it.  Many fans are wrong.

The trade itself was very reasonable. There are several reasons why you make that trade.

The question isn’t should they made the trade. The question is, was there a better trade to make?

By that I mean, could he have gotten a rental that gave us more right now value or could he have addressed the pen instead of a long term starter?

You can argue that he should have gone a different direction with those 2 players but we have no idea if he could have and if this was the best option he had, making the trade was better than not making it.

Even the early results are misleading (not that he was good but he was better than the results but bad luck and bad defense in a SSS didn’t help).

We have to agree to disagree on this. There is no other way around it. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Baseball fandom said:

We have to agree to disagree on this. There is no other way around it. 

You can agree to disagree...but the Rogers trade really isn't a hill to die on, either.  It's not the trade to judge Elias on.  And if you want to judge Elias and hold that trade above anything/everything else like it's some kind of trump card...well, I think you'd be one of a few doing that.

[ThomasTomasz]

20 minutes ago, webbrick2010 said:

Thanks Tony, I didn't think I was crazy or completely unwarranted in my concerns with Elias

I would also counter that perhaps it is not such a great GM talent to tank a ML team, collect several years of top 5 picks and then get to a playoff level.

I am singly focused on the O's building a championship roster and don't believe that Elias will ever get there. I believe the buy/trade for pitching approach has doomed the Orioles for the next several years at least

Alright, it isn’t just ‘top five picks.’ 

1.) Our analytics department was the smallest in baseball.  Elias brought the Sigbot with him, and created a new analytics department where we are on the cutting edge of technology.  Even at the start of this transition, Dean Kremer, who came from LAD where they are a top analytics organization, said there was “nothing” that the Orioles were doing under the Duquette regime with utilizing technology on the level that LAD was.  Now, we are one of the best organizations doing that.  

2.) Our front office and development staff was upgraded.  Peter Angelos valued loyalty, and made a lot of hires and kept people in the organization because they were part of the ‘Orioles Way’ from way back when.  Elias came in and immediately brought some of his guys with him, such as Sigbot and Koby Perez.  He then made sweeping changes across the board a year later, starting with Matt Blood in player development.  We also kept a few people from the previous regime, but he gave a year to people to ‘get with the program’ and align with the vision. 

3.) Peter Angelos, as a labor attorney, did not agree with the way that international signings worked and signing players who were 16 years old.  Duquette came in talking a lot about improving our international presence, including a Dominican facility, and Peter never let him do it.  John let Elias do this.  Over 20% of MLB rostered players come from J2 international signings in the Caribbean.  Elias finally completed that facility, promised to us over a decade ago by the former GM.  We usually have 2-3 players signed from the Top 50, and our first player from our first international signing class just hit AAA.  

The Orioles pre-Elias were a Stone Age organization.  Sure, Elias has some misses, but damn, a sub .500 stretch for two months does not negate all of the positives that he has done to make sure that this is a winning organization for a decade-plus to come.  

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Just now, Baseball fandom said:

But many including myself hated that trade and early results so far certainly looks bad. 

Cool.

We have Rogers for 2025 and 2026 though, and I suspect his acquisition had a lot more to do with those years than this year. 

He was clearly a reclamation project rather than a pure "win now" move. It's crazy to me how few people seem to realize this.

[Baseball fandom]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

You can agree to disagree...but the Rogers trade really isn't a hill to die on, either.  It's not the trade to judge Elias on.  And if you want to judge Elias and hold that trade above anything/everything else like it's some kind of trump card...well, I think you'd be one of a few doing that.

See what Tony wrote. He nailed it to a T for me. 

[ThomasTomasz]

Also, just because this is ‘baseball’ at it’s finest, I’m adding this to the discussion: 

 

[Baseball fandom]

1 minute ago, DrinkinWithFermi said:

Cool.

We have Rogers for 2025 and 2026 though, and I suspect his acquisition had a lot more to do with those years than this year. 

He was clearly a reclamation project rather than a pure "win now" move. It's crazy to me how few people seem to realize this.

Sadly you had to remind me we have got multiple years. Yuck.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, webbrick2010 said:

Since there was a thread to eliminate the field manager, I thought there should be a thread to fire the general manager

In the past 12 months we have gone from a 101 win AL East champion backed up by a AAA champion Norfolk tides and #1 farm system to a team

With Slater, Eloy, Rivera, and Livian Soto on the active roster

Connor Norby (10 game hitting streak), and Kyle Stowers ( 6 RBI's this week), were traded for nothing (and there was near universal agreement that this was a dreadful trade)

The system is heavy on LH hitting prospects

The top prospects (Mayo, Kjerstad) have major defensive short comings

No starting pitching has been drafted in upper rounds, there are zero pitching prospects in the pipeline. Cade Povich who does not have a single ML level pitch is in the rotation.

Jackson Holliday (see Norby trade) was rushed to the majors and is not ready

Team has played bad fundamental baseball for most of 2024 but Hyde remains in dugout

2025 looks bleak with the need for at least 3SP's, and several bullpen arms

I was willing to give the draft the bats, trade for the arms approach a chance but the ML wide shortage of pitching has made this approach and Elias a failure.

Time to move on.

 

 

I suppose day drinking isn't the worst thing if you have Friday off. I wouldn't do it, but it's all up to you, man.

[Tony-OH]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t care if some fans didn’t like it.  Many fans are wrong.

The trade itself was very reasonable. There are several reasons why you make that trade.

The question isn’t should they made the trade. The question is, was there a better trade to make?

By that I mean, could he have gotten a rental that gave us more right now value or could he have addressed the pen instead of a long term starter?

You can argue that he should have gone a different direction with those 2 players but we have no idea if he could have and if this was the best option he had, making the trade was better than not making it.

Even the early results are misleading (not that he was good but he was better than the results but bad luck and bad defense in a SSS didn’t help).

The thought behind the trade made sense, but after seeing what Roger's stuff looked like, I do think they need to address the professional scouts or system that thought Rogers would help this team in a pennant drive.

I mean, without scouting Rogers, I thought just looking at the overall numbers that he might be better than Povich and is retainable so why not? Westburg and Mateo were still healthy and playing everyday so there didn't appear like many PAs available for Norby or Stowers this year.

But when I watched his first game I was shocked by the lack of stuff. Not just velocity, but only the change was vaguely a major league pitch and he was struggling to command that pitch. So I thought, maybe it was just that start. Then he came out and was that guy again. Then again. That's when it hit me, that's who this guy is right now.

What made them think he was an "adjustment" away from being successful in a pennant drive? 

That goes back to the question, has the team ever acquired a struggling pitcher at the major league level during a season and made him better? Flaherty and Fuji say hello.

Eflin was already good, and Dominguez and Soto have been who they were, talented but inconsistent relievers that you never fully have confidence in during one run or tie games.

This is where I think the Orioles think they are smarter than they are. 

And for the love of God, I wish Elias would stop trading with the Marlins or picking up their cast offs. Their GM must have an Elias shrine built, and every time the phone rings he must hope it's Elias on the other side.