After Two Weeks of Pie...

[bluedog]

I understand bringing in a guy with upside, however I am a big Luke Scott fan and I just believe that the Pie move was not really needed. If we would have gotten a 3rd baseman, shortstop, or first baseman with upside I would be all behind the move.

As far as the McPhail thing I just don't believe he makes this move if he is not an ex cub.

Luke's value to this club is his bat which is still in the lineup. Pie is an obvious upgrade over Luke defensively and the bat he's replacing is not Luke's but Kevin Millars. If Pie can achieve a .717 or better OPS (Millar in 08) and if his defense in LF is a greater improvement over Scott, than Millar's defense at first was over Huff, then we've lost nothing.

If Pie finds his stroke and can approach his AAA OPS of .800+, then the O's will be far, far better because of this move.

[SrMeowMeow]

Why are people so against the Corey Patterson comparison, except that by this point it's negative?

                                               G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	HBP	IBB	SH	 SF	DP 	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPSPatterson: Minor League Totals - 5 Season(s)	348	1399	249	397	89	25	54	205	86	33	108	289	18	7	4	14	15 	.284	.340	.499	839Pie:       Minor League Totals - 7 Season(s)	632	2528	424	755	136	55	62	317	118	72	207	535	25	7	28	18	27 	.299	.355	.470	825

It seems pretty valid to me. Patterson just didn't succeed, which is a risk with anyone, including Pie. But they're pretty similar players. So is Adam Jones.

[Frobby]

Just thought I would throw these out there...2009 projections for Pie:

Bill James: 745 OPS

CHONE: 727 OPS

MARCEL:: 706 OPS

ZIPS: 712 OPS

Now, the OBP aren't great for any of them(306-323 range) but I would take any of those this year...706 OPS wouldn't be the best but it may be ok if he shows improvement and is excellent in the field.

The complete incompetence I see from people in their judgement of him is actually just getting amusing.

I personally believe Pie should be able to put up a .700+ OPS this year. But it is condescending to say that those who disagree are "incompetent." These projection systems.are just making educated guesses like the rest of us and they can't factor in anything that has happened this spring (which shouldn't be given too much weight, but it's not zero weight, either). If someone thinks Pie will be a bust, all I can say is, "we'll see."

[Hank Scorpio]

To quote Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis.". If one wanted to be insulting, one would have said Luis Matos Jr.

What are the chances that both you and I have used this exact quote on the same day on the same board?

How about that?

[Sports Guy]

I personally believe Pie should be able to put up a .700+ OPS this year. But it is condescending to say that those who disagree are "incompetent." These projection systems.are just making educated guesses like the rest of us and they can't factor in anything that has happened this spring (which shouldn't be given too much weight, but it's not zero weight, either). If someone thinks Pie will be a bust, all I can say is, "we'll see."

There is a difference between disagreeing with the idea and saying that he has done nothing in the majors and we should cut him now.

People keep saying he has done nothing in the majors but NONE OF THEM have cited age, regularity of play and things like that.

Their reasons are ignorant and show very little knowledge.

If you want to say that his swing is long, his plate discipline is poor and things like that and that you feel he is a long shot to succeed, that's fine.

But saying he should be cut, is blocking Reimold and things like that are just opinions that scream "give me attention".

[turtlebowl]

I'm a big Luke Scott fan as well, trust me.

I agree that MacPhail doesn't make the move if he's not an ex Cub, either...but MacPhail is familiar with him and must think that he's got what it takes. Can't fault him for the familiarity factor here....it's like a coach leaving a basketball program and some of his players follow him to the new school. So what?

This trade seems to go against everything McPhail stands for. First we trade Olson (who I was not high on) that was young and even at this point would probably have about as much upside of anyone left at spring training. If Olson turned out to have a decent season this year we could of had a real trade chip with him next off season. In contrast, he could of bombed and he could have gotten released next off season.

Again, I hope Pie will be a superstar. If I was a betting man I would wager that he will become a very valuable 4th outfielder for a good team. Whatever happens it just dissapoints me that because Pie has no options that we have told players that have come up through the organization that it doesn't matter how well you perform this spring you can't earn a spot.

[turtlebowl]

I'm a big Luke Scott fan as well, trust me.

I agree that MacPhail doesn't make the move if he's not an ex Cub, either...but MacPhail is familiar with him and must think that he's got what it takes. Can't fault him for the familiarity factor here....it's like a coach leaving a basketball program and some of his players follow him to the new school. So what?

This trade seems to go against everything McPhail stands for. First we trade Olson (who I was not high on) that was young and even at this point would probably have about as much upside of anyone left at spring training. If Olson turned out to have a decent season this year we could of had a real trade chip with him next off season. In contrast, he could of bombed and he could have gotten released next off season.

Again, I hope Pie will be a superstar. If I was a betting man I would wager that he will become a very valuable 4th outfielder for a good team. Whatever happens it just dissapoints me that because Pie has no options that we have told players that have come up through the organization that it doesn't matter how well you perform this spring you can't earn a spot.

[Frobby]

For some unbeknownst reason, Adam Jones was met with practically a 100% approval rating when we acquired him from the Mariners last year despite having some initial struggles in parts of two years in Seattle.

Pie? Not so much.

Two things:

1. Jones had a .759 OPS last spring. Pie has a .483 OPS this spring. And, he's 2 years older than Jones was last year.

2. Jones was going to be the everyday CF, where you can tolerate a pretty weak bat so long as the defense is excellent. Since we already have Jones in CF now, Pie is slotted for LF, where defense just isn't as important. So, his offense becomes more of a focus. (P.S. - Pie hasn't mastered LF yet, either, so that's part of the issue.)

I don't agree with those calling for Pie's head, but I understand where they are coming from, and it is not inconsistent to have supported Jones last spring and to be down on Pie now.

I'm all for giving Pie 3 months before we take a serious look at how he's doing, but I'd be lying if I said his performance wasn't making me nervous.

[Sports Guy]

1. Jones had a .759 OPS last spring. Pie has a .483 OPS this spring. And, he's 2 years older than Jones was last year.

And those putting that much emphasis on spring stats are being foolish..in either direction.

2. Jones was going to be the everyday CF, where you can tolerate a pretty weak bat so long as the defense is excellent. Since we already have Jones in CF now, Pie is slotted for LF, where defense just isn't as important. So, his offense becomes more of a focus. (P.S. - Pie hasn't mastered LF yet, either, so that's part of the issue.)

Minor point....I think this is more of a "we want Reimold" thing.

[JTrea81]

Minor point....I think this is more of a "we want Reimold" thing.

No it's more of a "we don't want to break LF" type of thing...

[Sports Guy]

No it's more of a "we don't want to break LF" type of thing...

We aren't breaking LF...We are increasing DH.

The moment you get that, the better off you will be.

[JTrea81]

We aren't breaking LF...We are increasing DH.

The moment you get that, the better off you will be.

We are actually potentially breaking both.

Luke Scott isn't known for being a good DH which is going to be his primary position with Pie in LF. He has a career line of .198/.250/.323/.573 in 104 PA at the position. Granted it's a small sample size, but you can clearly see that Scott who has admitted he hates DHing, doesn't perform well there.

Last year the Orioles DH position was 9th in MLB with an .821 OPS, 2nd in MLB in SLG with a .491 SLG and 5th in runs with 89.

The Orioles LF position was 13th in OPS with a .805 and 10th in SLG with a .470. In 2007 the Orioles had a .631 OPS at the position and a .348 SLG at the position and ranked 30th and 29th in those categories.

So a .706 OPS from Pie would drop the Orioles LF production to the bottom of the league. If Freel were to platoon with Pie it might go up, but it won't be close to an .805 OPS.

Essentially Kevin Millar is what Pie is replacing and even his 36 year old self managed a .714 OPS. I would expect a 24 year old with Pie's skills to surpass that.

So I gues the question is why do we want to potentially break two positions? I know you can say that we should trade Scott and move Reimold to DH, but the Orioles seem perfectly content to keep Scott because he's cheap and productive. Had they left him alone in LF, this might be still the case, but I could see both positions taking a nosedive in production this season and we are going to need all the offense we can get to support our pitchers.

[Mad Mark]

My goodness...this thread is still ticking.

It's the freakin' Timex of non-Teixeira threads, it is.

I notice, however, that none of the anti-Pie guys pitch for the Orioles!

Now, if he could just learn how to pronounce his own last name, I'd say stick him in LF, and call me in September, but I'm generous that way.

I can't wait for the regular season to begin, so JTrea can jump sharks over something that kind of, sort of matters.

That is all.

Goodnight.

[Sports Guy]

We are actually potentially breaking both.

Luke Scott isn't known for being a good DH which is going to be his primary position with Pie in LF. He has a career line of .198/.250/.323/.573 in 104 PA at the position. Granted it's a small sample size, but you can clearly see that Scott who has admitted he hates DHing, doesn't perform well there.

Last year the Orioles DH position was 9th in MLB with an .821 OPS, 2nd in MLB in SLG with a .491 SLG and 5th in runs with 89.

The Orioles LF position was 13th in OPS with a .805 and 10th in SLG with a .470. In 2007 the Orioles had a .631 OPS at the position and a .348 SLG at the position and ranked 30th and 29th in those categories.

So a .706 OPS from Pie would drop the Orioles LF production to the bottom of the league. If Freel were to platoon with Pie it might go up, but it won't be close to an .805 OPS.

Essentially Kevin Millar is what Pie is replacing and even his 36 year old self managed a .714 OPS. I would expect a 24 year old with Pie's skills to surpass that.

So I gues the question is why do we want to potentially break two positions? I know you can say that we should trade Scott and move Reimold to DH, but the Orioles seem perfectly content to keep Scott because he's cheap and productive. Had they left him alone in LF, this might be still the case, but I could see both positions taking a nosedive in production this season and we are going to need all the offense we can get to support our pitchers.

Only in your mind is this the case.

Even if Pie sucks, they have lost nothing.

To sit there and even hint at the idea that the Orioles aren't in position to give this kid a chance is beyond foolish.

And in your little write up there, you never mentioned defense or speed.

Whatever, its like talking to a wall...You have supported nothing you have said with anything substantiated...You ignore all projections...You ignore all facts.

You just spurt out things that have very little consequence while you sit there and dream of a team with Jaime Moyer in the rotation.

BTW, its funny how you and some others are talking about things this year(in terms of record), as if it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

[RShack]

We are actually potentially breaking both.

Luke Scott isn't known for being a good DH which is going to be his primary position with Pie in LF. He has a career line of .198/.250/.323/.573 in 104 PA at the position. Granted it's a small sample size, but you can clearly see that Scott who has admitted he hates DHing, doesn't perform well there.

Last year the Orioles DH position was 9th in MLB with an .821 OPS, 2nd in MLB in SLG with a .491 SLG and 5th in runs with 89.

The Orioles LF position was 13th in OPS with a .805 and 10th in SLG with a .470. In 2007 the Orioles had a .631 OPS at the position and a .348 SLG at the position and ranked 30th and 29th in those categories.

So a .706 OPS from Pie would drop the Orioles LF production to the bottom of the league. If Freel were to platoon with Pie it might go up, but it won't be close to an .805 OPS.

Essentially Kevin Millar is what Pie is replacing and even his 36 year old self managed a .714 OPS. I would expect a 24 year old with Pie's skills to surpass that.

So I gues the question is why do we want to potentially break two positions? I know you can say that we should trade Scott and move Reimold to DH, but the Orioles seem perfectly content to keep Scott because he's cheap and productive. Had they left him alone in LF, this might be still the case, but I could see both positions taking a nosedive in production this season and we are going to need all the offense we can get to support our pitchers.

I think JTrea has a point here. I wouldn't say it the way he did, and Reimold is not the big issue for me. But his basic point is similar to my initial reaction to the Pie deal. Now, since then I have adjusted to the New World Order, I'm all about Pie getting a chance, and I have no firm date for the hook if he doesn't do so hot. But it is a speculative move, and I do have concerns that it could suppress Luke's performance and value. I don't think it's crazy for JTrea to say it could have neg FX at 2 positions. I'm not counting on that, but it's not a crazy thought either.

The main reason I'm OK with it is because I don't think AM is a bozo who has a Jones (heh-heh) for ex-Cubbies. So, for me, between now and when we actually know something, Pie is basically getting the vote of confidence that AM has earned from me. Even so, when I consider the most likely upside scenario, it seems to me that the good result might be that we end up with 2 good CF'ers and no LF'er. Now, there's worse problems to have than that. If nothing else, it would let SG invent a strong, inflexible position about who we should then keep and who we should trade: AJ or Pie? ;-)