For those who want Carlos Lee....

[BaltimoreTerp]

It's not just copying how OAK and MIN do it... it's a crucial part of restoring exactly what they did when The Oriole Way existed. Really. Go back and see.

People *say* they want The Oriole Way again. But I don't think they do. I think what they really want The Steinbrenner Way.

I think so too.

You can't demand a rebuilding project and then either a) refuse to believe that we are going through one or b) become impatient and throw it away on a whim.

[Sports Guy]

I know i want the Atlanta(Shuerholz) way.

FA's and a great farm system.

[ejf1025]

I know i want the Atlanta(Shuerholz) way.

FA's and a great farm system.

Well...Mazzone and a great draft class and blossiming farm system....

Baby steps....

[camdenyardblues]

So trades worries you.

So does developing prospects.

I mean, do you have some magical formula to come up with two aces?

In short, yes, you wait for them to become Mark Buerhle.

My point is that the O's farm system is NOT strong enough to carry the team into the playoffs. We have some fine prospects but the O's farm system is still considered middle of the road in comparison to other teams. So waiting for Penn, etc, to turn into Mark Buerhle is risky. If Penn, etc were touted as praised as future aces by reputable sources, then I might be feel better about relying on the farm system. But this isn't the case. As far as solutions, I've this said before but it might be time for a fire sale. The best way to build a playoff team through the farm system (i.e. the Orioles Way) is to stockpile the farm system. And one good way to stockpile the farm system is through trades. Tejada should be able to land to blue chip prospects for example. Not that the RS would do this trade but Tejada for Lester and Papelbon is what I'm talking about when I say stockpiling the farm system.

edited: added a NOT to the first sentence, much apologies.

[camdenyardblues]

The Minnesota way is developing as much young talent as possible because your owner won't spend more then $30 million on payroll until you can win and increase attendence.

The Oakland way is to look for an undervalued trait that you can find cheap and exploit.

The Oriole Way is to build a strong defense and pitching staff through the minors (although that last bit can be negotiable in the age of free agency).

Got it although I don't think Ryan and Beane would agree with simple neologisms describing their development programs but point taken.

[camdenyardblues]

Well...Mazzone and a great draft class and blossiming farm system....

Baby steps....

Absolutely agree but as a fan baby steps take a long time to reach the playoffs. And despite the O's great last draft, this farm system isn't ready to spit out a playoff contender soon.

[El Gordo]

I hope not.

Why not? We need a big number 4 hitter. Who's better on the FA market. Is he worse than Konerko? If we don't pay big bucks for a power hitter we're going to have to trade Prime pitching. Why are you suddenly so concerned for the state of PA's wallet?

[Sports Guy]

Why not? We need a big number 4 hitter. Who's better on the FA market. Is he worse than Konerko? If we don't pay big bucks for a power hitter we're going to have to trade Prime pitching. Why are you suddenly so concerned for the state of PA's wallet?

Whay i am concerned about is giving a guy that is not all that great 1/6 of our teams salary.

It's not PA's wallet i am worried about, it is the well being of this team.

[El Gordo]

I know i want the Atlanta(Shuerholz) way.

FA's and a great farm system.

They claim they have only been emulating the Oriole Way.

[El Gordo]

Whay i am concerned about is giving a guy that is not all that great 1/6 of our teams salary.

It's not PA's wallet i am worried about, it is the well being of this team.

Why is he worse than Konerko?

[Sports Guy]

Why is he worse than Konerko?

I am not sure he is. But Konerko is way overpaid too.

[ejf1025]

My point is that the O's farm system is NOT strong enough to carry the team into the playoffs. We have some fine prospects but the O's farm system is still considered middle of the road in comparison to other teams. So waiting for Penn, etc, to turn into Mark Buerhle is risky. If Penn, etc were touted as praised as future aces by reputable sources, then I might be feel better about relying on the farm system. But this isn't the case. As far as solutions, I've this said before but it might be time for a fire sale. The best way to build a playoff team through the farm system (i.e. the Orioles Way) is to stockpile the farm system. And one good way to stockpile the farm system is through trades. Tejada should be able to land to blue chip prospects for example. Not that the RS would do this trade but Tejada for Lester and Papelbon is what I'm talking about when I say stockpiling the farm system.

edited: added a NOT to the first sentence, much apologies.

I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement in the past...but not now. Our farm system was recently rated number 10 (I believe, may have been 13, not sure) by BaseballAmerica...according to John Sickles' ratings the O's have some very good top prospects although organizational and positional depth is an issue.

By all accounts, Bedard and Cabrera were tabbed for breakout seasons by several sources. Chris Ray seems to be a top-end closer. Brian Roberts has solidfied himself as a very good major leaguer. Nick Markakis is a top prospects getting playing time. Loewen and Penn are top 100 prospects slated to join the club at some point this year. Rleal has upper-end bullpen potential. Erbe and Liz are absolutely dominating in the minors. Olson has pitched well and with his college experience should be an O sooner rather than later. In fact, I would say that the Orioles pitching system is one of the brightest in baseball. Between the aforementioned, I think a lot of big league clubs would love to have 5 potential front-end starters waiting in their minor leagues.

Trading Tejada is a different issue. I was pro trading Tejada during his first trade demand, but it was obvious that the prospect package we are all looking for was not available. At this point, there is no rush to move Tejada, IMO. But I understand the argument.

Nevertheless, we now have three legitimate starters developed from within. A good bullpen arm in Rleal (possibly others as Birkins and Britton have showed promise). Two very good prospects who could make their way into the rotation by '07. And three other pitching prospects playing exceptionally in the minors. None of his includes Reimold and Snyder, two good positional prospects. No mistake; we are not the DBacks or Angels, but I think a very strong argument could be made that we have one of the better farm systems in the division- and most importantly we are stockpiling young pitching, i.e. the best commodity in baseball.

Obviously, not all of these players will pan out. But at least we are not banking on just one prospect as we did in years' past....

The key here is patience and perspective. Again, new pitching coach, new pitching system, new catcher. These things take time- not two months. Furthermore, even if this team signed Byrd, Millwood, Weaver, Burnett, Washburn this off-season they would still be struggling to make a playoff push. Sure the record might look nicer, but none of them are true top of the line starters....

Again, we must, MUST, develop our own pitchers to compete in THIS division. We are trying to do that, these changes do not happen overnight. IMO, if run correctly and developed correctly, this team should be in the wildcard hunt in '07. And be serious playoff contenders in '08.

If this does not happen...well, then blow the thing up...

P.S. If we don't start seeing competitive games in August/Sept '07 I will be very worried about the state of this franchise....not that I wasn't already but at least now I see a plan...here's hoping they don't f it up.

[El Gordo]

I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement in the past...but not now. Our farm system was recently rated number 10 (I believe, may have been 13, not sure) by BaseballAmerica...according to John Sickles' ratings the O's have some very good top prospects although organizational and positional depth is an issue.

By all accounts, Bedard and Cabrera were tabbed for breakout seasons by several sources. Chris Ray seems to be a top-end closer. Brian Roberts has solidfied himself as a very good major leaguer. Nick Markakis is a top prospects getting playing time. Loewen and Penn are top 100 prospects slated to join the club at some point this year. Rleal has upper-end bullpen potential. Erbe and Liz are absolutely dominating in the minors. Olson has pitched well and with his college experience should be an O sooner rather than later. In fact, I would say that the Orioles pitching system is one of the brightest in baseball. Between the aforementioned, I think a lot of big league clubs would love to have 5 potential front-end starters waiting in their minor leagues.

Trading Tejada is a different issue. I was pro trading Tejada during his first trade demand, but it was obvious that the prospect package we are all looking for was not available. At this point, there is no rush to move Tejada, IMO. But I understand the argument.

Nevertheless, we now have three legitimate starters developed from within. A good bullpen arm in Rleal (possibly others as Birkins and Britton have showed promise). Two very good prospects who could make their way into the rotation by '07. And three other pitching prospects playing exceptionally in the minors. None of his includes Reimold and Snyder, two good positional prospects. No mistake; we are not the DBacks or Angels, but I think a very strong argument could be made that we have one of the better farm systems in the division- and most importantly we are stockpiling young pitching, i.e. the best commodity in baseball.

Obviously, not all of these players will pan out. But at least we are not banking on just one prospect as we did in years' past....

The key here is patience and perspective. Again, new pitching coach, new pitching system, new catcher. These things take time- not two months. Furthermore, even if this team signed Byrd, Millwood, Weaver, Burnett, Washburn this off-season they would still be struggling to make a playoff push. Sure the record might look nicer, but none of them are true top of the line starters....

Again, we must, MUST, develop our own pitchers to compete in THIS division. We are trying to do that, these changes do not happen overnight. IMO, if run correctly and developed correctly, this team should be in the wildcard hunt in '07. And be serious playoff contenders in '08.

If this does not happen...well, then blow the thing up...

P.S. If we don't start seeing competitive games in August/Sept '07 I will be very worried about the state of this franchise....not that I wasn't already but at least now I see a plan...here's hoping they don't f it up.

Tejada is the centerpiece of this club now. We have him Mora, GIbbons, Hernandez, BRob, to be productive for the next 3-4 years at best. After that we have to look to replace them. Why wait 2-3 years for prospects to develop when we can spend money for a power hitter and a top pitcher and win now.

[camdenyardblues]

I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement in the past...but not now. Our farm system was recently rated number 10 (I believe, may have been 13, not sure) by BaseballAmerica...according to John Sickles' ratings the O's have some very good top prospects although organizational and positional depth is an issue.

By all accounts, Bedard and Cabrera were tabbed for breakout seasons by several sources. Chris Ray seems to be a top-end closer. Brian Roberts has solidfied himself as a very good major leaguer. Nick Markakis is a top prospects getting playing time. Loewen and Penn are top 100 prospects slated to join the club at some point this year. Rleal has upper-end bullpen potential. Erbe and Liz are absolutely dominating in the minors. Olson has pitched well and with his college experience should be an O sooner rather than later. In fact, I would say that the Orioles pitching system is one of the brightest in baseball. Between the aforementioned, I think a lot of big league clubs would love to have 5 potential front-end starters waiting in their minor leagues.

I don't really disagree with your assessment of the O's farm system. I just don't think it's ready to carry us into the playoffs within the next few years unless the O's make improvements through FA or trades. You believe that the farm system is ready to take the O's to the playoffs by 08. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Again, we must, MUST, develop our own pitchers to compete in THIS division. We are trying to do that, these changes do not happen overnight. IMO, if run correctly and developed correctly, this team should be in the wildcard hunt in '07. And be serious playoff contenders in '08.

I don't disagree with the philosophy of developing pitchers through the farm system. It's just that I don't believe any of our pitching prospects will be aces. And you need strong number 1 and 2 starters to get to the playoffs. Penn and Loewen are very good prospects. I'm not trying to knock them but I don't hear the minor league baseball experts drooling over them like they drool over Felix Hernandez or Verlander.

If this does not happen...well, then blow the thing up...

P.S. If we don't start seeing competitive games in August/Sept '07 I will be very worried about the state of this franchise....not that I wasn't already but at least now I see a plan...here's hoping they don't f it up.

You obviously have a lot of faith in our prospects. I wish you the best.

[ejf1025]

Tejada is the centerpiece of this club now. We have him Mora, GIbbons, Hernandez, BRob, to be productive for the next 3-4 years at best. After that we have to look to replace them. Why wait 2-3 years for prospects to develop when we can spend money for a power hitter and a top pitcher and win now.

Please tell me which power hitter and pitcher available will suddenly make this team a contender.

If you stuck Carlos Lee and Barry Zito on this team today are we suddenly contenders?

Not if Cabrera and Bedard pitch poorly.

Look, free agency and trades are tools by which good teams can become great. Developing your own pitching is how you make a team consistently good.