how embarrasing!!

[elsid]

You seem surprisingly knee-jerk about this particular issue. Doesn't seem like your normal self. Saying "you don't use 7 guys to go 3.2 IP" is no more-or-less sensible than saying "you don't use 3 guys to get 3 measly outs in the 9th while giving up 7 runs in that one inning". The only reason it was 7 arms is because it took 3 guys to get 3 outs in the 9th. The fact that you word it the way you do makes it sound like you're twisting things to make it sound different than it really was.

You realize that DT's got a 15-man pitching staff to use, don't you? And you do realize that it was a high-leverage situation, don't you? Not saying that the decisions DT made were un-arguable. Of course they are arguable. But you're acting like there is no valid point of view here, and I don't see how you can jump all over it like that. He had the arms, it was a high-leverage situation, and he used arms to deal with it. The problem wasn't the 6th, the problem was that Mickolio couldn't get anybody out in the 7th and JJ couldn't get anybody out in the 9th.

Why is everyone saying that the problem is not the 6th inning? Just because no one scores, doesn't mean anything. It took the same amount of guys to get 3 outs in the 6th, as it did to get 3 outs in the 9th.

The Mickolio and JJ thing is a problem. In fact, it was a bigger problem, since that part falls straight on them for not performing. It was high-leverage to start the 9th, yes, but not after the Yanks had scored some runs. The other part is what falls on the manager, how he uses his bullpen (i.e. bullpen management).

[boogidownoriole]

So if you're a teacher and you have a kid failing constantly he isn't trying?

You don;t see him study at home until midnight. You don't know he goes to tutors outside of your watchful gaze.

He just keeps failing your test - and seeing how in your mind bad results = not trying, the kid is a lazy failure?

This team is full of underachievers. If you really think that with all of this talent they shouldnt be closer to .500 then 30 under than we can never agree on anything.

When this happens, you blame the leadership. Our leadership is horrible and really, can you deny that? They are all guys who have never had any real success. Bring some winners to show how its done.

We know a guy can have a world of talent but only good leadership can show him to harness that to use it for the teams benefit.

[brooksie05]

how can they prove it to you? The fact that a majority of the losses over the last month have been by three runs or less? The fact that the infield went on a rather impressive errorless streak? The fact that a p[layer like Felix Pie who lost his job in the beginning of the year never got down worked his ass off and is now revitalized.

Of course Trembley and Crow get NO credit for Pie's turn-around.

How can they possibly prove that to you?

Because every team, no matter how poorly they play have little moral victories. Honestly, an errorless streak or Pie getting a couple of hits doesn't mean much when you're getting drilled by the AL East and some of the bottom feeders in the AL Central. Wins and losses are what counts in the big leagues.

[SilentJames]

Because every team, no matter how poorly they play have little moral victories. Honestly, an errorless streak or Pie getting a couple of hits doesn't mean much when you're getting drilled by the AL East and some of the bottom feeders in the AL Central. Wins and losses are what counts in the big leagues.

So all losing teams play with no heart?

Only winning teams have heart?

Because of winning is the only way to show this elusive heart the only winning teams play with it?

[ccbird]

I read the full story on here and plenty of other places. Johnson didn't record an out, take him out of the picture. Say Mickolio doesn't even start the 7th. There are still 6 pitchers used to go 3.2 IP. Sure, if Mickolio pitches better in the 7th, that may change things, but I would doubt it, since he went to his other lefty. And since you are speaking of big "if's", then if Guthrie had pitched better for the whole year, then he might be up for the Cy Young.

There are many more places for bad bullpen management, if there are more arms out there:

1) Hendrickson can go more than 0.1 IP

2) Sarfate is just back off the DL, no need to have him go back to back games yet, especially with additional people in the pen.

Bad choices at the wrong time is the manager's fault. Yes, the guys in the bullpen have to perform. However, it is the manager's job to put them in the best possible situation in order for them to succeed. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I would have to look it up, but how many times has Berken given up two HR's to one guy in the same game? I would think it would be very low, if not zero, so just because Hinske is coming up again, doesn't mean anything. Which means he could have stayed in longer. Even if you go to Hendrickson, he could have gone an inning +.

With all due respect you weren't watching the game. You know as well as I do that a lot of times making a change and BP decisions are made by watching a guy throw and going on feel. With that said, I feel like I had a better perspective on the situation and I felt going to Hendrickson for Hinskie was fine there. To me the one arguement someone has is that Hendickson could have stayed on to face Molina and if he retires him you have Mickolio start the 7th vs Jeter. Still, if Hendrickson doesn't get Molina he has to get Mickolio to face Jeter in the 6th.

The plan was Mickolio in the 7th, Baez in the 8th and JJ in the 9th. That would have been 4 guys for 3.2 innings. Again, not ideal but certainly nothing usual, especially with a 15 man pen. Mickolio and JJ have been the two best relievers over the last month so I think it's fair to expect them to be able to pitch an inning or at least retire some batters. Both completely blew up, as did Sarfate after JJ, and the number goes to 7 guys instead of 4.

[RShack]

Why is everyone saying that the problem is not the 6th inning? Just because no one scores, doesn't mean anything. It took the same amount of guys to get 3 outs in the 6th, as it did to get 3 outs in the 9th.

The Mickolio and JJ thing is a problem. In fact, it was a bigger problem, since that part falls straight on them for not performing. It was high-leverage to start the 9th, yes, but not after the Yanks had scored some runs. The other part is what falls on the manager, how he uses his bullpen (i.e. bullpen management).

Whether or not anybody scores has a whole lot to do with it.

Look, what DT wanted to do was use 4 guys to get 3.2 IP. He wanted 1 out from the LOOGY idea, 4 outs from Kam, and an inning each from 2 other guys, presumably Baez and JJ. How is using 4 guys to get 3.2 IP any more-or-less goofy than the MFY's using 3 guys to get 2 IP? It's not. The difference is that they scored runs and we didn't. If we scored runs and they didn't, would you be criticizing the MFY's for using 3 guys in 2 IP?

ps: I'm not crazy about the LOOGY idea in general, but I accept that it's part of baseball regardless of whether I like it or not.

[ccbird]

Why is everyone saying that the problem is not the 6th inning? Just because no one scores, doesn't mean anything. It took the same amount of guys to get 3 outs in the 6th, as it did to get 3 outs in the 9th.

The Mickolio and JJ thing is a problem. In fact, it was a bigger problem, since that part falls straight on them for not performing. It was high-leverage to start the 9th, yes, but not after the Yanks had scored some runs. The other part is what falls on the manager, how he uses his bullpen (i.e. bullpen management).

1.Day off tommorow

2. 15 man pen

3. Desperately trying to salvage a win

4. Berken has struggled in the 6th before and had given up a HR earlier in the game to Hinskie.

All factors that I'm sure went through DT's mind. Even if Berken gets through the 6th , Mickolio is coming on to face the top of the lineup in the 7th. We're arguing one decision, the Hendrickson move, and considering all the things listed above I'm sure you can understand DT's rationale tonight.

[Bradysburns]

Unfortunately, 100 losses DOES go on paper and makes us look like the laughing stock of baseball...we're becoming the KC Royals of the AL East.

On paper, this team is pretty much what it is on the field - inexperienced, undermanned and in much need of some veteran leadership via the free agent market. I wonder which players on this club actually get ticked off and yell when guys mess up on the base paths? Nick, Adam? One thing I'll say for Jay Payton, he at least got excited every once in awhile. Nothing stinks more than watching guys lose when they just look demoralized, and flat. That's not a good sign. They need some new, experienced, talented blood.

[Bradysburns]

At least Royals stunk it up too. Many thought they would win the division this year.

How do teams like the Marlins compete every year with not so much major league talent? That has to come down to leadership

Agreed - and leadership starts at the top. The Marlins have a great GM, and he decides who to hire as manager, and runs the personal department. Sure, Loria has interceded, and ran off Girardi. But you can do that when you hire someone to replace him who is as good as Fredi Gonzalez.

Luckily, the O's have a chance of competing in the future because of AM. If Angelos continues to leave him alone, we'll be alright. We're are at the absolute bottom right now. This is what it looks like when the team bottoms out. But like any good alcoholic knows, you gotta hit bottom before you can really recover.

Here's to a recovery - and it will finally happen next year. I hope.

[Bradysburns]

It sucks - it genuinely sucks - no doubt about that.

It sucks that the Yankees as a team have been genuinely classless the last couple of games. Posada and Swisher standing and watching homeruns - yet Felix Pie had the audacity to hit a homerun and the Yankees take such great offense.

Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for some sort of StarBucks-WalMart-McDonalds super combination that is destroying America.

Hey, you have no right to bring Starbucks into this! If I can't nurse my emotional wounds as an Orioles fan with a quad-grande espresso over ice, then I truly will have to fling myself into the Inner Harbor, and get vacuumed up by one of those trash boats.

But seriously, it's so maddening to watch the Yankees. They come in here looking so RELAXED. They come to the plate, they're smilin'. Just gadunkin' around town, folks, come in here to beat up the little kids again. You can almost see them trying to put on straight faces when playing the Orioles. They just expect to beat this team, and the O's know it.

When are the O's just going to start getting PO'd? When will their pride as men finally make them stand up and draw on every last ounce of their considerable - if inexperienced - talent and beat these jerks?

I like DT, but I actually do think an Earl Weaver in his prime would absolutely start ripping these players, whether it was "fair" or not - and that would perhaps bring out just a tad more emotion and focus in them for these games.

At least going out and getting tossed from a few of these lopsided games would send a message - "Hey, we're here, and we do care and we're going to keep coming at you like rabid dogs until the final out, you jerko Yankee scum!"

[KLJ]

.... That helps a lot when you play in a gigantic launch pad that has single-handedly resurrected Johnny Damon and Nick Swisher's power numbers.

well, i read every post in this thread waiting for someone to correct you on this ridiculous statement, but it seems that nobody will. please look up swisher's home and road splits..

[McNulty]

And their team also leads the universe in homeruns and runs scored. That helps a lot when you play in a gigantic launch pad that has single-handedly resurrected Johnny Damon and Nick Swisher's power numbers.

Actually, Swisher has 20 homers away from home, and only 3 at home this year. He's hitting 80 points higher on the road. Odd stuff.

I only skimmed the first 50 posts or so, but Trea, you suck the fun out of every thread dude.

I'm joining JJLynn's policy: I will paypal you 20 dollars not to post here anymore. No, I'm not kidding.

[Malike]

Please, Girardi used 3 relievers in one inning this game. Man, we love to micro manage anything, and everything.

[McNulty]

Just to put a nice little bow on my rantings about Sly, allow me to summarize his thoughts ONCE AND FOR ALL so he doesn't have to wreck shop in every thread (apparently he thinks he needs to post the same few "thoughts" over and over again cause we just don't pick up on it the first 2901309231 times)

He doesn't think Trembley is right for the job, doesn't think MacPhail will ever sign a premium free agent, is pissed off about Tex, wants to trade for Adrian Gonzalez (or someone of his ilk) and will trade 4 or 5 top prospects to do so, we can't compete without a "big bat" (and manufactured a ridiculous line of reasoning to support this, "Our young pitchers are going to be over burdened without proper run support (nevermind the Giants do just fine with their pitchers and no offense)"...what is this, the California Penal League??). Oh, and spring training is all John Angelos's fault and he's an embarrassment. And Joe Jordan doesn't know what he's doing until everyone else says its a great draft and then he shuts up and doesn't acknowledge how utterly wrong he was.

EVERYONE GOT THAT?? Good, now we can move the flip on and stop having every thread derailed.

Sorry for derailing this thread, but it already was IMO and Malike hit the nail on the head in the post above mine.

[SilentJames]

well, i read every post in this thread waiting for someone to correct you on this ridiculous statement, but it seems that nobody will. please look up swisher's home and road splits..

fair enough, my mistake - but the New Yankee stadium is a total joke as far as the HR ball is concerned.