Warehouse Excuses - Nothing Ever Changes!

[scOtt]

I see what you mean, but I don't buy it. That's an arbitrary distinction that does not reflect reality.

The reality is that, when the O's are good, they get lots of fans from the DC area, both at the ballpark and watching on TV.

The area they pull from is the 4th biggest market in the nation. It's just a fact...

That is true. The Gnats couldn't even touch us if we were contending.

I wonder if the opposite is true? If they were contending? Luckily there's no chance of that in the near future.

[Wind Rider]

Wouldn't by any chance be a former Braves fan, would you?

Taken out of context, your quote makes no sense. But within the context that when winning becomes expected, anything less is a letdown, I can understand it...to a point

Based on what? You have an inside source on financial side of the Warehouse?

Is this also based on your extensive knowledge of the Orioles finances, or are you riding into battle under JTrea's "the Orioles are Cheap" banner? I believe the Orioles are interested in winning--within their budget--which is a lot different than being interested in winning "at their price", whatever that price may be.

I think you're smoking crack here. All you can really ask for--unless you're a Yankee$ fan--is to get to the playoffs; once you're there you're subject to the whims of the short series. I'd be happy to make the playoffs for eight straight years; happier still to make the WS eight straight. I'd be saddened and disappointed if the Orioles made eight straight WS and didn't win any...until I remember they made three straight (1969-70-71) and brought the trophy home only once.

Forbes says the Orioles have the third highest earnings in baseball if you total the last seven years. If you don't believe Forbes just look at their behavior. From 2000 to 2009 25 teams raised their payroll an average of 94%. Three teams lowered their payroll a little. Two teams lowered their payroll a lot San Deigo at 20% and the Orioles at 19%. They did this in spite of a significant influx of MASN money. Next year with the drop in payroll that 19% drop will be over 30%.

[TonySoprano]

I usually agree with you on here, but I think the excessive criticisms of AM are a bit over-the-top.

Look at our past GM's-Roland Helmond and Syd Thrift (his tenure with the O's could possibly go down as the worst of any GM in history).

I don't think AM is a savior, but I certainly do think he is better than anything we have had since Pat Gillick.

Do you truly believe AM has free reign to do whatever he wants? Do you think he really wanted to draft Hobgood? If his reputation is based on the success of the franchise, why wouldn't he want better players?

The answer to that question my friend is the reason this franchise has sucked for over a decade. Don't blame AM because there are more forces at work.

So, do you support the work AM is doing overall or not? Would you rather that someone else be in charge? Would you have beaten the contract that Lackey was given? Assuming Holiday ends up in the 8/140 territory, would you have beaten that to get him? What splash would you advocate for this offseason that you haven't seen thus far?

I don't really want to interact with Trea, O5F, and MSK, but I would love to hear from folks like you and AmateurFan. You guys are knowledgable, rational folks w/o an agenda (so far as I can tell). I'm not asking to bait you. I'd truly like to know.

FYI, I'd like us to spend some money this offseason but I just don't see a reasonable case for a guy that would actually make a difference. I'd offer Holiday 5/100 w/o blinking, but I just can't go to 8/140. It just seems insane to me. Same with Lackey's offer. I don't see a good name out there that makes sense to me. I liked the Millwood move and Gonzalez signing. Atkins is a decent flyer, but I'm not expecting much (think Rich Hill).

My biggest peeves this offseason revolve around the pace of increase in foreign scouting. That article in the Sun was outstanding, but I don't understand why we've only increased our foreign scouting to 3 full time folks. We should be higher IMO.

BTW, I agree that we need to shore up SS, but I've got no problem with it happening after this offseason. We're covered for a year so AM can shop and find the right solution. If he doesn't find that solution by ST 2011, I'll be livid. This is one that he must do, but he has time on his side IMO.

If you two want to start a side debate on the merits of Andy, fine. I've merely been responding to the myth that Andy's some kind of bionic GM, building success faster than anyone in the history of the game, mind you.

I've said before, and it's a moot point, the guy who I'd rather see in charge is Pat Gillick. Is Andy better than his immediate predecessors? Yes, but that's damning him with faint praise given his counterparts. Case in point, the local press lauded Andy on how we're now spending $1,5 million on foreign scouting, over three times the budget under Flanagan. Well, with all the money that Andy has pulled off the books the last two years, $1.5 million is still chump change compared to the Red Sox, who have four times the number of scouts that we have. Oh, but Andy's working at a pace faster than any GM in history.

I do believe he has a much freer reign to operate. For example, IMO, Angelos wouldn't have allowed Flanagan to let Mora go.

Holliday or Lackey were non-starters given the way we do business, so I'm not worked up that they're going elsewhere. Andy did promise that we will be bat shoppers and do what it takes for Trembley to produce a "meaningful improvement in the standings" in 2010. We'll see how much he does between now and spring training.

[TonySoprano]

This all depends on how you define sustained long-term success. How do you define that?

In my book, I define it as comparable to what the Red Sox and Yankees have achieved for the past dozen years i.e. the antithesis of the Orioles. Otherwise, what label do you apply to what they've done? Uber-success? The unreachable star? For the purposes of the discussion of what is long-term success, how they got that success (by big spending) is a red herring to the discussion. The Mets have been near the top in terms of payroll and what has that gotten them overall?

There was a school district that one of the worst in their state despite having one of the top per student budgets. So what did they do to get more students to "pass?" They lowered the standards to do so.

This is what we're doing here with the Orioles. Ratcheting down expectations, defining down what is success, so we can feel better about things. There's no room in the NY or Boston model of success for the occasional crappy year. Nor was it our model when we were going to four world series in six years, either. [/i]Long-term sustained success is NOT this....

For me, it means more than a decade where being good is the normal state of things. I'd say that means being seriously in the race until late in the season most years, with at least a few post-season appearances that go beyond just the 1st round, and having a crappy year only once in a while, so that a crappy year is clearly the exception to the general rule. Now, I probably could be persuaded to change those exact details in various ways, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

[amateurfan]

Look, if you don't want or expect the O's to be good for a sustained period, that's up to you. But I do. And because I do, it's only sensible to look at what we can learn from other examples of achieving that. In the cases where a crappy franchise got turned around to be a consistently good franchise, it took longer than I think AM is on a pace for. Now, I agree that we won't know for sure until we see how good the O's become and for how long, but it's dumb to say this isn't an issue that matters. Just because you have an unrealistic time frame, with no examples to support it, that doesn't mean the issue doesn't matter. To the contrary, for anybody who wants to see the O's be good all the time again, it is exactly the issue that matters...

Doesn't the burden of proof rest with you? You are the one who made an assertion without any evidence whatsoever. Then, after that assertion, it's been demanded of others to prove the opposite. How did that happen? Shouldn't you have provided an analysis of other teams throughout baseball history?

[Hank Scorpio]

In my book, I define it as comparable to what the Red Sox and Yankees have achieved for the past dozen years i.e. the antithesis of the Orioles. Otherwise, what label do you apply to what they've done? Uber-success? The unreachable star? For the purposes of the discussion of what is long-term success, how they got that success (by big spending) is a red herring to the discussion. The Mets have been near the top in terms of payroll and what has that gotten them overall?

There was a school district that one of the worst in their state despite having one of the top per student budgets. So what did they do to get more students to "pass?" They lowered the standards to do so.

This is what we're doing here with the Orioles. Ratcheting down expectations, defining down what is success, so we can feel better about things. There's no room in the NY or Boston model of success for the occasional crappy year. Nor was it our model when we were going to four world series in six years, either. [/i]Long-term sustained success is NOT this....

It's easy to avoid crappy years when you've got essentially unlimited revenues.

Hopefully the Orioles can ramp up some success to really turn MASN into a contender. Commercials probably don't pay much when there's very little fan interest, which there is currently. Build yourself a winning team internally and you'll see a spike in revenues.

You just hope they're competent enough to keep it afloat once it's afloat. Right now, it's not afloat. Repairs needed to be made, they still need to be made in certain areas.

But there should be no question that this team is much more talented than it was even 3 years ago, and that is directly attributable to what Andy MacPhail has done to this point.

Of course he has more to do. I'm pretty sure he realizes this.

I appreciate progress, others don't care until it shows up in the W/L column. That's fair, but recognize the difference between 2009 & 2006. We are in a much better place.

[tilgaham]

I didn't bother to read all 9 pages, but my feeling is this:

No one is stopping you from walking away from the team today. You're not obligated to be an O's fan. No one is. They're moving in the right direction, and only a fool would not see that.

[Wind Rider]

I didn't bother to read all 9 pages, but my feeling is this:

No one is stopping you from walking away from the team today. You're not obligated to be an O's fan. No one is. They're moving in the right direction, and only a fool would not see that.

I have been an Oriole fan since 1961. I was there when Frank hit the ball out of the park, Palmer pitched his no hitter and Cal broke the streak. I see the direction they're moving in, makng money first with winning secondary and it makes me sick. I will not leave. I will be here when someone rescues the Orioles from Angelos' reign of ruin. And I am not a fool.

[Satyr3206]

I didn't bother to read all 9 pages, but my feeling is this:

No one is stopping you from walking away from the team today. You're not obligated to be an O's fan. No one is. They're moving in the right direction, and only a fool would not see that.

What he said. If you can't deal with it, walk away. I'm so sick of the whining. My kids act better.

[Wind Rider]

What he said. If you can't deal with it, walk away. I'm so sick of the whining. My kids act better.

I've been a fan since 1961 why should i walk away. I'll fight against the total greed and incompetence instead.

[MemorialStadKid]

I have been an Oriole fan since 1961. I was there when Frank hit the ball out of the park, Palmer pitched his no hitter and Cal broke the streak. I see the direction they're moving in, makng money first with winning secondary and it makes me sick. I will not leave. I will be here when someone rescues the Orioles from Angelos' reign of ruin. And I am not a fool.

Bravo.

Nothing like one fan telling another fan that they shouldn't be a fan because they don't like the way the FO operates.

Classic.

MSK

[MemorialStadKid]

And some are hardwired to attack the FO no matter what they do.

And some rant against made up groups of posters.

And some folks rip the organization to shreds every time any free agent doesn't sign with the Orioles. To each his own.

Uhm, okay.

I don't recall doing either of these things but its cool.

I do believe this franchise has a lot of work to do to become and then remain competitive. Who can argue with that?

I hope they take more chances and make better trades and smart signings.

I don't think that is an unreasonable idea.

Happy New Year to you all, have a great evening and stay safe.

MSK

[El Gordo]

I've been a fan since 1961 why should i walk away. I'll fight against the total greed and incompetence instead.

I've been a fan since 1955. I can't walk away... I can hardly walk at all.:laughlol:

[Moose Milligan]

Uhm, okay.

I don't recall doing either of these things but its cool.

I do believe this franchise has a lot of work to do to become and then remain competitive. Who can argue with that?

I hope they take more chances and make better trades and smart signings.

I don't think that is an unreasonable idea.

Happy New Year to you all, have a great evening and stay safe.

MSK

I agree with this.

The big difference is if certain posters (not necessarily you) can stop flipping out at every given opportunity when something doesn't go our way.

[El Gordo]

Bravo.

Nothing like one fan telling another fan that they shouldn't be a fan because they don't like the way the FO operates.

Classic.

MSK

I don't read that in what he said at all. But of course I can read.:rolleyestf: