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Warehouse Excuses - Nothing Ever Changes!

Old#5fan

By Old#5fan
in Orioles Talk

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Sports Guy Hangout Grand Counsel

Sports Guy

Posted
Posted
Is it really necessary to stoop to this kind of rhetoric and personal attacks? If you have the better argument, that argument should speak for itself.

It is not that easy to set up trades that are contingent on your first acquiring another player via free agency. Can MacPhail get an idea of what he might receive for Pie or Reimold? Yeah, I expect so. Having another team truly committed while waiting to see if the O's can acquire Holliday is another story.

Yes..He is the worst.

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scOtt Hangout Grand Counsel

scOtt

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Frobby is right-- this kind of comment is uncalled for.

When you're at the point that you "despise" a person on an Internet message board, you're taking things way too seriously. Take a breath, relax, and take the advice you've been given 100 times and put Shack on Ignore already. This needs to stop.

Not to mention... this whole messageboard bet thing is so divisive and sad. "You'll be gone for two years" :rolleyes:

Rob, Shack is more to this board than just the things you and he disagree to. Shack is a welcomed poster in many other fora. Including this one, even if his ideas are... radical... to say the least.

It was an internet messageboard bet... that led the OP to THIS board. ;)

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24fps Hangout Grand Counsel

24fps

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Not to mention... this whole messageboard bet thing is so divisive and sad. "You'll be gone for two years" :rolleyes:

Rob, Shack is more to this board than just the things you and he disagree to. Shack is a welcomed poster in many other fora. Including this one, even if his ideas are... radical... to say the least.

It was an internet messageboard bet... that led the OP to THIS board. ;)

Well said.

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Electro98 Rookie

Electro98

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I'm not advocating saving money, I'm advocating spending money more smartly. I want to the team to operate at or near it payroll capacity too, I just don't see the need to get there as quickly as possible.

This. But unfortunately none of us know what that capacity is so we have no idea how much is going back into the team and how much is just being pocketed by PA. I have a feeling that we as fans are being short-changed though.

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Dipper9 Hangout Grand Counsel

Dipper9

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I am a supporter of the rebuild and of MacPhail's plan, and I am excited by the thoughts of the young talented team that I will watch in 2010. That said, I can see the reasoning behind the OP and the excuses do get tiresome year after year after year. When WILL we make that big signing? To me, this is not the offseason to do it, as to me Holliday is not a $100 million player. But I will not make any more excuses for not throwing the vault at Tex last year.

Make no mistakes, a rebuild is definitely the right path, and it does take time and patience, but MacPhail needs to be willing to bring in the big money FA along with the young talent. I look at Seattle as an example. They stunk last year. Yet, in the course of a couple months, they have arguably become the favorites to win the AL West in 2010. Now, sustaining that may be an issue, but for fans who have not had a winning team since 1997, we need SOMETHING, or the diehard loyalists among us will continue to decline.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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His road OPS for the last 3 years:

.860, .892, .830

Nick Markakis' road OPS for the last 3 years:

.819, .843, .787

And keep in mind we are paying Markakis $15 million per season starting in 2013.

Of course the odds are that Markakis has yet to reach his ceiling, while Holliday has. There's a world of difference in signing a pre-arb, pre-peak guy to a reasonable extension to buy out some of his free agency years, and signing a post-peak free agent to a top-of-the-market deal because he's the best available player right now.

I'm not advocating saving money, I'm advocating spending money more smartly. I want to the team to operate at or near it payroll capacity too, I just don't see the need to get there as quickly as possible.

I don't think quickly is the point. I think "with impact" is the point. The O's don't need to lead the league in marginal dollars per marginal win. They need to spend big when it has big impact. It's almost guaranteed that Holliday is a declining talent, and that signing him really narrows the O's window - they have to win in the next couple years, because it's highly unlikely he earns anything like his salary on the backend of his deal. He'll be consuming a huge chunk of payroll for essentially being an average left fielder, for 3, 4, 5 years.

The Cubs had plenty of payroll room for Alfonso Soriano. The Jays had plenty of payroll room for Vernon Wells and Alex Rios. They still do. Their problems aren't because they're poor, or because they can't compete with average players on the roster. They could do either. It's just much harder to compete when you're paying top dollar for average players.

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MikeAD Hangout Grand Counsel

MikeAD

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I believe Palmeiro was an outfielder at first as well.

It can obviously be done, but I just question if it's something MacPhail would be comfortable with.

Correct on Palmeiro. A few other names that come to mind are Pujols, Don Mattingly, and Willie McCovey. McCovey didn't start as an outfielder but he played 3 straight seasons there before going back to first.

Theres also players like Chipper Jones and Surhoff who could make the move anytime between LF and 3B (or C/3B/OF with Surhoff), and 3B is harder to play than first.

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Leitch Major Leaguer

Leitch

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Correct on Palmeiro. A few other names that come to mind are Pujols, Don Mattingly, and Willie McCovey. McCovey didn't start as an outfielder but he played 3 straight seasons there before going back to first.

Theres also players like Chipper Jones and Surhoff who could make the move anytime between LF and 3B (or C/3B/OF with Surhoff), and 3B is harder to play than first.

Pujols was also a 3B.

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MikeAD Hangout Grand Counsel

MikeAD

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Posted
Pujols was also a 3B.

Yeah, I thought about that, he doesn't really fit into the mold of OF to 1B because he was a good corner infielder.

Anyway, switching positions isn't that bizarre and theres plenty of successful examples.

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El Gordo Hangout Grand Counsel

El Gordo

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Yeah, I thought about that, he doesn't really fit into the mold of OF to 1B because he was a good corner infielder.

Anyway, switching positions isn't that bizarre and theres plenty of successful examples.

Pujols played way more games in the OF from 2001 -04, than 3B. He became a full time 1B in '04.http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml
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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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Anyway, switching positions isn't that bizarre and theres plenty of successful examples.

As long as you go the right direction. Outfield to first base, sure. Third to first, sure, Short to second, yep. But right field to third? Rarely works. First base to anywhere? Not so much. Second to short? Nowhere besides messageboards of teams with good second basemen and no shortstop.

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MikeAD Hangout Grand Counsel

MikeAD

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As long as you go the right direction. Outfield to first base, sure. Third to first, sure, Short to second, yep. But right field to third? Rarely works. First base to anywhere? Not so much. Second to short? Nowhere besides messageboards of teams with good second basemen and no shortstop.

Well, of course there are plenty of limits. We can find many examples of a Catcher becoming a 3B/1B but I can't think of many players who moved from first to anywhere. Theres tons of players that started at 3B or SS and had great careers in the Outfield. It is fun to see posters always talking about moving this player here or there. I especially like it when moving a 2B to SS is discussed and the posts move to an argument over just how different 2B and 3B are.

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RShack Hangout Grand Counsel

RShack

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You may be right - but we had a very successful example of that in the form of a guy by the name of Boog Powell.

I think he was seen as a 1B-man from the beginning. It's just that when they brought him up, we had Jim Gentile at 1B. So, who moves to LF, the 27-yr-old who had just hit 46 HR's and 141 RBI the year before, or the rookie kid who had just turned 20? Boog did well enough in LF that they kept him there for a couple years, through both Gentile and Siebern. Eventually, I think it was the shin splints that made up their mind about moving him back to 1B. He was missing lots of time from shin splints, and running around in the OF didn't help any...

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