Should Pie have plowed into Joba?

[TGO]

Regardless of whether Pie deserves blame or not it's just another example of us coming up short against the Yankees. Maybe my anger is misplaced. Whatever. Just sick of losing to them like this.

I think this is illustrative of what some people (I hope) who are heavily criticizing Pie are feeling. The Yankees had two pieces of great luck on that play -- the carom and Chamberlain's foot not just blocking the plate (which does take skill) but also kicking Pie's foot off line. The Yankees, as usual, get all the breaks and their players (mercenaries), who are better than ours, take advantage. And then Gregg served up a meatball and we all knew how the game was going to end at that point. It's deflating.

But I really believe Pie does not deserve a lot of these comments. It was not the best slide anyone has ever seen but I don't think it was as bad as some people are making it out. In fact, it looks fairly textbook. The problem is that Joba's foot popped him out of the slide, and that is why he did not "get low" and why it looked awkward. He did what he could at that point and I think as vatech mentioned that took a great degree of body control to continue to go for the plate and not just fall over.

The fact that it was the Yankees and the fact that it was Pie are reponsible for this thread. If this happened to Brian Roberts against the Royals, or even a non-NYY team we can't seem to beat like the Twins, I don't think this thread would exist.

[srock]

A good slide and he scores? What do you mean a good slide, like a hook slide? I'm confused. In the video link sportsguy posted, http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/vid...79234&c_id=bal it looks to me like Pie is going into a correct slide at 1:13 in the video. Once he contacts Joba that changed his direction and motion. It looked to me he was making a "good" slide when you watch in slow motion. If you watch the play in real time Pie looks like an uncoordinated fool, but I don't think that is a good representation of what happened.

A good slide, by definition, gets the runner to the plate away from a possible tag. This slide got him stopped short by the pitcher! If he couldn't slide around Joba, then he should have gone through him.

I'm not saying this was an easy play for Pie, as this isn't a normal situation. But I expect Major Leaguer's to excel in difficult situations. This is, in many cases, what separates them from the guy waiting in AAA. Lots of Pie's value is in his pinch running prowess. He had a high leverage chance to prove it last night, but he failed.

BTW, the link to video is bad. Here is a good one. Play is at :50 second mark.

After closer analysis, I think the only way Pie scores is if goes through Joba one way or another. Which is exactly what he should have done. You can't let a pitcher block a plate like that. If he is going to keep you off the plate, you make him earn it. A good slide would have spiked Joba in the leg and sent him toppling thus allowing Pie to score.

[ChrisAF79]

But Pie wasn't standing on 3B, so he was considerably closer to the plate than 90 ft.

Touché!

[ChrisAF79]

A good slide, by definition, gets the runner to the plate away from a possible tag. This slide got him stopped short by the pitcher! If he couldn't slide around Joba, then he should have gone through him.

I'm not saying this was an easy play for Pie, as this isn't a normal situation. But I expect Major Leaguer's to excel in difficult situations. This is, in many cases, what separates them from the guy waiting in AAA. Lots of Pie's value is in his pinch running prowess. He had a high leverage chance to prove it last night, but he failed.

I think the bolded illustrates how people are being too harsh on Pie. How in the world is he supposed to make a split-second decision and alter his body like that? Joba wasn't even at the plate yet by the time Pie started the motion of sliding. How was he to know that Joba would block the plate in that manner? As someone previously stated, had Pie gone in with the intention of barrelling over Joba, he probably would have ended up looking even more foolish in the process.

The Yankees were the recipients of plenty of good fortune on that play, with a dash of solid instincts from Joba. That's pretty much all this boils down to.

[El Gordo]

If it was the same exact play with the same outcome, only it involved Adam Jones or Nick Markakis instead of Pie, this thread would not exhist.

[srock]

I think the bolded illustrates how people are being too harsh on Pie. How in the world is he supposed to make a split-second decision and alter his body like that? Joba wasn't even at the plate yet by the time Pie started the motion of sliding. How was he to know that Joba would block the plate in that manner? As someone previously stated, had Pie gone in with the intention of barrelling over Joba, he probably would have ended up looking even more foolish in the process.

The Yankees were the recipients of plenty of good fortune on that play, with a dash of solid instincts from Joba. That's pretty much all this boils down to.

He is a profesional. Furthermore, at this time he is a profesional backup OF and pinch runner. I expect him to be aware of what the pitcher is doing and I expect a Profesional to make the correct split second decision.

I'm not saying he is going to be perfect every time, but when he fails to execute, he should be held responsible for it. That's what being a profesional is.

[srock]

If If it was the same exact play with the same outcome, only it involved Adam Jones or Nick Markakis instead of Pie, this thread would not exhist.

I disagree. However, I concede the thread would most likely have a much different tone.

Except from myself of course

[SerenityNow]

A good slide, by definition, gets the runner to the plate away from a possible tag. This slide got him stopped short by the pitcher! If he couldn't slide around Joba, then he should have gone through him.

I'm not saying this was an easy play for Pie, as this isn't a normal situation. But I expect Major Leaguer's to excel in difficult situations. This is, in many cases, what separates them from the guy waiting in AAA. Lots of Pie's value is in his pinch running prowess. He had a high leverage chance to prove it last night, but he failed.

BTW, the link to video is bad. Here is a good one. Play is at :50 second mark.

After closer analysis, I think the only way Pie scores is if goes through Joba one way or another. Which is exactly what he should have done. You can't let a pitcher block a plate like that. If he is going to keep you off the plate, you make him earn it. A good slide would have spiked Joba in the leg and sent him toppling thus allowing Pie to score.

I edited the link in my post, sorry about that. As far as the play I respectfully disagree that Pie made a poor effort at home. Even in slow motion they both appear to reach home within a fraction of a second of one another. It just so happened that Jaba kicked/stepped on Pie or else he probably would have spiked him in the leg. You're representing the play like Jaba was standing there 10 feet before Pie reached home and Pie should have lined him up and crushed him, this just wasn't the case. Also stating that a bang-bang play on a rare play at home is what seperates the big boys from AAA players doesn't make alot of sense in my opinion.

[ChrisAF79]

He is a profesional. Furthermore, at this time he is a profesional backup OF and pinch runner. I expect him to be aware of what the pitcher is doing and I expect a Profesional to make the correct split second decision.

I'm not saying he is going to be perfect every time, but when he fails to execute, he should be held responsible for it. That's what being a profesional is.

He's a professional, but that doesn't allow him to do things that are physically impossible to do nor is he able to read Joba's mind. As I said, Pie was already sliding as Joba approached the plate. He didn't know exactly where Joba would be, and he can't un-slide. And had he gone in looking to plow Joba, he would have lost that battle.

[TGO]

A good slide, by definition, gets the runner to the plate away from a possible tag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Maybe you can say a good slide is one executed with proper timing and technique that presents the highest possible likelihood of reaching the base safely and the lowest possible likelihood of injury (each as compared to all other alternative slides or methods). But saying a good slide is one that gets you to the base safely is not a fair definition. Getting to the base safely is an end result that cannot be used to evaluate whether a slide is good or not.

[Big Al]

Cal and Billy were just talking about this on XM. Billy thinks Joba did a great job of blocking the plate and did it intentianally. Also that Felix didn't expect such a perfect carom and it surprised him into not knowing exactly how to approach the plate. Cal thinks if Pie slides hard, he's safe.

[srock]

He's a professional, but that doesn't allow him to do things that are physically impossible to do nor is he able to read Joba's mind. As I said, Pie was already sliding as Joba approached the plate. He didn't know exactly where Joba would be, and he can't un-slide. And had he gone in looking to plow Joba, he would have lost that battle.

I disagree. You slide hard into a moving leg and it will give way regardless of how much is piled on above the belt.

I for one am tired of letting our guys of the hook when they don't execute.

It was not physically impossible for him to make the correct decision, difficult sure but Pie needs to score on a past ball. Yes, Joba did all he could to prevent him, but the percentages say Pie should find a way to score.

I'll was also just as critical of Markakis's failed diving catch, he should make that play. It didn't get a 6 page thread because no run ended up scoring if I remember correctly.

[srock]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Maybe you can say a good slide is one executed with proper timing and technique that presents the highest possible likelihood of reaching the base safely and the lowest possible likelihood of injury (each as compared to all other alternative slides or methods). But saying a good slide is one that gets you to the base safely is not a fair definition. Getting to the base safely is an end result that cannot be used to evaluate whether a slide is good or not.

We could nitpick this all day, but I didn't say "safely" I said it gets you to the bag. Maybe instead of 'good' I should have said 'effective slide'. Pie's slide, was clearly ineffective.

[srock]

Cal and Billy were just talking about this on XM. Billy thinks Joba did a great job of blocking the plate and did it intentianally. Also that Felix didn't expect such a perfect carom and it surprised him into not knowing exactly how to approach the plate. Cal thinks if Pie slides hard, he's safe.

Put me in the Cal camp on this debate.

[JERSEYORIOLE]

If If it was the same exact play with the same outcome, only it involved Adam Jones or Nick Markakis instead of Pie, this thread would not exhist.

I disagree partly. I think if it were Nick it would not exist. If it were Jones it would. Jones takes alot of heat on this board. IMO, it could never exist for Nick because I think Nick scores easily there. I think Brob does too. If you take speed out of the equation and assume that the ball and the player arrive at similar times, I think Vlade, Wieters, Renyolds do too. In fact if Jake Arreita was pinch running I think he scores. I think most players that have high baseball IQ's score there. Pie, although a good athlete, does not have a high baseball IQ.