TT: MacPhail's plan has failed

[El Gordo]

The plan was to build around young SP and augment that with FA acquisitions when the time is right. If you believe that Matusz, Arrietta, Britton have failed and will not be decent ML SP's, then the plan has failed. If you think we have no chance to acquire additional promising young SP in the near future then the plan has failed. The team that scored 10 runs off the Red Sox last night was one RP and a decent start away from crushing them. They win if DLee fields a routine GB. MacPhail misjudged the development arc of Matusz, Arrieta, Tillman, and Bergesen, and rushed Britton. He committed money to medicre FA who did not produce, so the plan has been stalled. But the plan makes good sense and can come to fruition in a few more years, IMO.

[NewMarketSean]

I am going to be something of a contrarian, and say that it is too soon to determine that the young pitchers won't turn out to be pretty good. I still have a fair amount of confidence in Matusz, Britton and Arrieta, despite their hiccups over the last two months. I haven't given up on Bergesen or Tillman as 4th/5th starters, either. These guys are 23-25 years old, and though I am disappointed with the fact that they have not built on the success of August and September last year, I'm not ready to declare them failures.

My bigger concern is the lack of players behind them in the system.

Agreed. Those guys can still become good pitchers but only Matusz was drafted under MacPhail, so whether the pitchers develop or not is irrelevant to MacPhail.

What we are saying is that MacPhail has had 4 years to implement his plan and it has failed on every level and failed worse than any of us could have ever imagined, which is saying a lot.

[Singleton]

Agreed. Those guys can still become good pitchers but only Matusz was drafted under MacPhail, so whether the pitchers develop or not is irrelevant to MacPhail.

What we are saying is that MacPhail has had 4 years to implement his plan and it has failed on every level and failed worse than any of us could have ever imagined, which is saying a lot.

So the GM is responsible for drafting but not for development? That makes no sense.

[NewMarketSean]

So the GM is responsible for drafting but not for development? That makes no sense.

Say MacPhail leaves after the season and Britton, Arrieta and Tillman become good SP's. Does MacPhail deserve credit for it?

[Woody Held]

The plan was sound. The execution was marginal. They got a small taste of winning last year and deviated. I think Matusz/Britton and Arrieta can still be good pitchers at the major league level. Right now though they look god awful

[jcook02]

I guess we need to except the fact that the Orioles are the farm system for the rest of the Major Leagues. When we give them a pitcher the next year they are a 20 game winner and when we give them a hitter they are batting 300 with 30+ home runs.......

[clapdiddy]

I think the idea was sound, but the execution has been bad. Why do all of our young pitchers stink when they get here? There needs to be some accountability, and that points directly to AM.

[clapdiddy]

I guess we need to except the fact that the Orioles are the farm system for the rest of the Major Leagues. When we give them a pitcher the next year they are a 20 game winner and when we give them a hitter they are batting 300 with 30+ home runs.......

Who are the examples of this? I realize there is a little sarcasm there, but I just don't see a lot of guys we've let go prospering elsewhere.

I see Jayson Werth, Bautista (but several teams gave up on him), maybe a few pitchers have done decently....but very few have actually been big-time players.

[Hank Scorpio]

I don't know, sure.

Pass the cream corn.

[JohnD]

My bigger concern is the lack of players behind them in the system.

My point in that other thread, as inarticulate as it may have been, is the same thing. That's why I have qualms with the player develoment system in place under MacPhail. But in the other thread you told me I was jumping the gun. But there's nothing to really get excited about in terms of impact players until you start looking in the Carolina League.

[Singleton]

Say MacPhail leaves after the season and Britton, Arrieta and Tillman become good SP's. Does MacPhail deserve credit for it?

Sure, i'd give him a good bit of it.

Say Machado hits well in Frederick for the rest of the season. AM is fired after the season. Machado becomes a stud in 2013. Does AM deserve credit? If not, who gets credit? How can you give the new GM credit if he didn't draft him which seems to be a key factor in your previous post.

These things are impossible to work through. Drafting is important. So is development. The GM is important in both. And of course, sometimes prospects fail or succeed in spite of the GM.

[NewMarketSean]

Sure, i'd give him a good bit of it given.

Say Machado hits well in Frederick for the rest of the season. AM is fired after the season. Machado becomes a stud in 2013. Does AM deserve credit? If not, who gets credit? How can you give the new GM credit if he didn't draft him which seems to be a key factor in your previous post.

These things are impossible to work through. Drafting is important. So is development. The GM is important in both. And of course, sometimes prospects fail or succeed in spite of the GM.

Well a lot of the players we have on the team now were drafted under Flanagan. He was let go as GM because the team failed to develop under him. The same thing is happening here. MacPhail may deserve credit for a draft signing or a trade, but overall his plan has failed. I was saying that Frobby's point may be valid but it still doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. MacPhail has failed.

[jcook02]

You are correct clapdiddy....Much sarcasm....But look at Moose, Wells.....Wigginton and Huff are having a good year....It just comes to a fork in the road..When you think they are taking 2 steps forward they actually end up 5 steps back. So clapdiddy there are no real standout per say. It just seems that when we let someone go or trade them they turn around and do better than they did with the O's.

[SrMeowMeow]

I don't really care if a plan succeeds or fails. What I care about, and what is becoming clearer to me, is that MacPhail's plan had no chance of success.

[NewMarketSean]

You are correct clapdiddy....Much sarcasm....But look at Moose, Wells.....Wigginton and Huff are having a good year....It just comes to a fork in the road..When you think they are taking 2 steps forward they actually end up 5 steps back. So clapdiddy there are no real standout per say. It just seems that when we let someone go or trade them they turn around and do better than they did with the O's.

Wigginton is having the same year he had in 2010 in Colorado, a better hitter's park and Huff has an OPS below .700. They are not doing better by any means.