TT: MacPhail's plan has failed

[Tony-OH]

The ballpark and the division make it much harder here than anywhere else except maybe Toronto. You do not develop 3 good starters at once never mind 5 in a division like this. Look at the Nats, a big reason they are a respectable team this year is because of SP's like Marquis and Hernandez. Yes, Zimmerman is a good pitcher but he has alot of other starters soaking up innings and keeping the team in games. Pitchers don't want to come here for the above reasons and would it make any sense to overpay to get guys who wouldn't be that good in this division anyway? For years around here people got mad about the Trachsel's and Eaton's of the world "blocking" a young pitcher. Buckholtz had a 6.75 era in 2008 making 15 starts, the Sox won 95 games that year and a wild-card. I have not given up on Britton, Arrieta and Matusz so I vote no.

Who has given up on these guys? Believing the plan has failed does not mean you think some of our young pitchers won't still end up as part of the future.

[Sports Guy]

Who has given up on these guys? Believing the plan has failed does not mean you think some of our young pitchers won't still end up as part of the future.

Right..Part of the problem is that AM hasnt acquired inventory.

That is his word...That is what he wants, yet he hasn't done it.

On top of that, he isn't putting the right people in place in terms of developing those pitchers.

The plan is flawed because AM isn't following through on it. The general concepts are correct...But if you aren't going to follow through on it and if you aren't to practice what you preach than you are nothing but a big bag of wind yapping away. It is meaningless talk.

He hasn't done nearly enough. Teams in the division with recent GM changes and less resources have lapped the Orioles and that is before you talk about Boston and NY.

[Frobby]

My point in that other thread, as inarticulate as it may have been, is the same thing. That's why I have qualms with the player develoment system in place under MacPhail. But in the other thread you told me I was jumping the gun. But there's nothing to really get excited about in terms of impact players until you start looking in the Carolina League.

I only meant that you can't criticize the 2008 draft on the basis that there is only one player who has made the majors, because very few players from the '08 draft have made the majors from any team at this stage. if you want to say that overall the post-MacPhail drafts have had weak results, you won't get an argument from me. Just look at how few Orioles made any of BA's league top 20's over the last couple of years.

[olehippi]

I think the execution of McPhail's plan has lacked the speed and efficiency that most of us hoped it would have, but I don't think that at this point, we can say it has failed. Yes, the young pitchers obviously weren't ready. But, the stop-gap guys that we signed the last couple of years didn't do the job they were asked to do, and the result was that guys like Tillman, Matusz, Bergeson and Arrieta were rushed to the majors, as was Britton, who almost everyone here on OH thought was ready. No doubt we need a true #1 starter.

We do have a strong core of young position players, and adding a few more solid bats will make a huge offensive difference. Again, the guys we signed to bridge that gap - Vlad and Lee - haven't done the job, although I think Lee has been a plus so far with the glove.

It might take another years or two, but I think we have a solid group of young players that will mature.

[MrOrange82]

I think the execution of McPhail's plan has lacked the speed and efficiency that most of us hoped it would have, but I don't think that at this point, we can say it has failed. Yes, the young pitchers obviously weren't ready. But, the stop-gap guys that we signed the last couple of years didn't do the job they were asked to do, and the result was that guys like Tillman, Matusz, Bergeson and Arrieta were rushed to the majors, as was Britton, who almost everyone here on OH thought was ready. No doubt we need a true #1 starter.

We do have a strong core of young position players, and adding a few more solid bats will make a huge offensive difference. Again, the guys we signed to bridge that gap - Vlad and Lee - haven't done the job, although I think Lee has been a plus so far with the glove.

It might take another years or two, but I think we have a solid group of young players that will mature.

How many teams bank their long-term futures on five starting pitching prospects and succeed? MacPhail didn't even bring all of them into the system.

Our defense is the worst defense in the majors, Lee or not. We have glaring holes at 2B, 1B, LF, and DH, and no one in the minors who's ready to help. None of our "young core" constitutes an impact bat. Adding a few more solid bats? How often has AM done that...ever?

Put another way...that smell...it's not last night's eggplant parm.

[Flacco Machado]

Right..Part of the problem is that AM hasnt acquired inventory.

That is his word...That is what he wants, yet he hasn't done it.

On top of that, he isn't putting the right people in place in terms of developing those pitchers.

The plan is flawed because AM isn't following through on it. The general concepts are correct...But if you aren't going to follow through on it and if you aren't to practice what you preach than you are nothing but a big bag of wind yapping away. It is meaningless talk.

He hasn't done nearly enough. Teams in the division with recent GM changes and less resources have lapped the Orioles and that is before you talk about Boston and NY.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Tell him what he's won, Johnny! You are exactly right, Tony and SG! Put Tony's article and SG's post together and you have the perfect explanation as to what has gone wrong. AM is going to live and die by that "grow the arms..." quote.

[SrMeowMeow]

Of course results and hindsight go hand-in-hand. But I don't care about either, only process and perceived results at the time of the transaction.

Just to be clear, MrOrange, I wasn't kidding. I would hate to get rep for a joke I wasn't making.

[SteveA]

Respect your opinion, Tony, but I voted no.

MacPhail's plan hinged on Matusz/Tillman/Arrietta/Britton forming the backbone of a good rotation going forward. Well, it obviously hasn't happened this year. The setbacks have been ugly and numerous.

But I'm not willing to write htem off yet.

Before this season, a LOT of people felt Matusz and Britton had the potential to be #2/#3 level MLB starters, and maybe one of them good enough to be a #1. Most felt Arrietta and Tillman could at least be #3/#4 starters, and some felt Tillman could become better (and he's still young).

They've all had setbacks this year. The changes of them all, or 3 of them, reaching their potential, has certainly decreased.

But it's not gone yet. Four months of bad pitching is a pretty darn small sample size to judge them failures. There are health issues to work out. Maybe issues involving mechanics and pitching coaches to wokr out (and yes I am concerned that we might not have the coaching and organizational philosophy to fix these things).

But I'm not ready to give up yet. And if those pitchers can turn it around and live up to the potential we saw in them just about 110 days ago, I think we have a pretty good offensive nucleus to build around. Concluding after less than half a year of baseball that a guy who was considered a potential #2 starter is now crap, is not merited, IMO.

And if they add that third wild card in 2012....

[crissfan172]

I wouldn't say his plan has failed. I would say that he hasn't really followed his plan.

Build around young pitching? Yes.

Add legitimate bats through FA or trades? No.

Stay away from FA pitchers? Yes.

Increase in international markets? Yes, but not nearly enough.

Revive the farm system? No, although part of that is the large amount of youth on the ML roster.

His plan is a good one, and it could work. He just hasn't executed it.

[SteveA]

I guess we need to except the fact that the Orioles are the farm system for the rest of the Major Leagues. When we give them a pitcher the next year they are a 20 game winner and when we give them a hitter they are batting 300 with 30+ home runs.......

Huh? Who are you talking about? Jayson Werth and Jose Bautista, who left our organization years ago??????

Who's the 20 game winner? Most of the pitchers we have let go of have been crap. Bruce Chen has somehow hung around at the back of the rotation for the worst team in baseball, and Bedard has pitched OK in the very, veyr few time periods when he's been healthy. David Hernandez has had a good half season.

[Oriolidae85]

Voted no for several reasons....we have yet to see this team play on all cylinders consistently. And they will, IMO

[The Maestro]

I'm still waiting on the "buy the bats" half of the motto.

[byrdz]

lol, loved this line, "Apparently the cavalry was led by General Custer."

[Roll Tide]

This is my concern as well. We don't develop arms or position players.

plus they are still drafting/signing pitcher heavy. They haven't produced a star bat and none is on the horizon. If Machado ends up being that great ... But the Orioles need to be better at drafting after the 1st round.