BA: Adam Jones 2nd best defensive OF in the AL

[El Gordo]

But that is the whole point. When they get asked this question, they have reputation to go off of. That reputation is based off of what they have seen in the games, as well as the reports the advance scouts give them. I don't think they are just picking out of a hat when asked this question.

The problem with this is, a good fielder, particularly an OF, bases a lot of his ability on speed. Speed is the first thing to go with any player. After 3-5 years at a position the speed factor has declined. Then the player maintains his fielding ability through positioning experience, and technique(Mike Cameron e.g.)if he can. A guy builds a reputation when he is young and then relies on it when he is actually in decline. The metric systems give you a more up to date accurate comparison. This BA poll is no different than the GG vote and I think we all know how accurate that is.

[DrungoHazewood]

I can only imagine what that "research" looked like.

Does Fangraphs' data match what I already know to be true through anecdotal evidence and casual observation, the vast majority of the time, especially when talking about Orioles? If not, it's wrong.

[Frobby]

Let's discuss a less controversial topic, like whether there is a God.

I don't fully trust UZR, but I certainly take it into consideration when forming my opinions about who is a good defensive player. I wouldn't consider Adam Jones one of the two best defensive OF in the AL even if I had never seen UZR. But, I don't think he is as bad as UZR would indicate, either.

[Redgrape]

The fact that Bourjos is somehow rated behind Jones by managers is laughable

[DrungoHazewood]

So Jones' biggest defensive strength is making nice catches in the OF, but we should take them away because we should assume other OFers could make the same play without diving?

Yes, if careful analysis of the plays in question suggests that. Ken Griffey and Andy VanSlyke are two names that immediately come to mind as having won multiple Gold Gloves because they were spectacular at the edge of their ranges, which happened to be smaller ranges than most other MLB center fielders.

Gold Gloves and much subjective analysis of fielding ends up being like ski jumping, where you can actually lose despite having the longest jump because there are style points.

[DrOrioles90210]

Let's discuss a less controversial topic, like whether there is a God.

I don't fully trust UZR, but I certainly take it into consideration when forming my opinions about who is a good defensive player. I wouldn't consider Adam Jones one of the two best defensive OF in the AL even if I had never seen UZR. But, I don't think he is as bad as UZR would indicate, either.

For everyone saying Jones is better than what UZR states, what part of Jones's defense (besides flashy plays) makes you believe he is an average defensive CF?

[AgentOrange]

If Jones makes a diving play, but another CF could make the same play without diving by getting a better jump and taking a better route, how does that not mean that the other CF is better? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that if Jones had to dive, that would be the limit of his range, but since the other CF didn't have to dive, he could reach balls Jones wouldn't?

In the short excerpt I posted for you, this is exactly what they say they measure (other than how quickly they reacted which shows up in whether the player reaches a ball or not).

This is what I am saying, there is an assumption that other players wouldn't have to dive for that ball. We have to assume coaching comes into play as well. The OFers move around all the time. Some coaches influence the players positioning more than others. If you can tell me exactly how long the ball was in the air and how much ground the player covered while fielding it, you can tell me how great of a play it was. I read all of the things they do. I didn't see them taking the wind into consideration. I am not saying its a huge deal, but in OPACY, the wind shifts quite a bit during the game. On each batted ball, they can tell me how much wind played a factor?

I am not totally dismissing the stats like WC is doing, I understand its the best data available at this time. I just don't think we should use them the way we use offensive stats, and I see them used that way more than I like.

[AgentOrange]

For everyone saying Jones is better than what UZR states, what part of Jones's defense (besides flashy plays) makes you believe he is an average defensive CF?

His arm is very strong and accurate. He does very well on not letting runners advance (tag ups, holding runners to a single). I think he tracks balls very well, he has solid lateral movement, he catches balls over his head very well. I think he is playing OF much better than he did last year.

[El Gordo]

Yes, if careful analysis of the plays in question suggests that. Ken Griffey and Andy VanSlyke are two names that immediately come to mind as having won multiple Gold Gloves because they were spectacular at the edge of their ranges, which happened to be smaller ranges than most other MLB center fielders.

Gold Gloves and much subjective analysis of fielding ends up being like ski jumping, where you can actually lose despite having the longest jump because there are style points.

Paul Blair comes to mind as the anti Griffey. I can't recall him diving for balls, although I'm sure he must have on occasion. He was as great as he was, because he got reads, great jumps and positioned himself expertly. He always seemed to be waiting for the ball, no matter where it was hit. Probably wouldn't have had too many Web Gems, if they had had those things, back then.

[El Gordo]

]His arm is very strong and accurate. He does very well on not letting runners advance (tag ups' date=' holding runners to a single). [/b'] I think he tracks balls very well, he has solid lateral movement, he catches balls over his head very well. I think he is playing OF much better than he did last year.

This is factored into his total numbers. He has one of the best OF arms in the game and does very well keeping runners from advancing. He just has poor range. He doesn't get good reasds on balls off the bat, particularly on balls hit right at him. He often takes a step in the wrong direction, before picking up the track of the bal, and thus loses range. He does not seem to be able to position himself as well as other experienced CF's.

[DrOrioles90210]

This is what I am saying, there is an assumption that other players wouldn't have to dive for that ball. We have to assume coaching comes into play as well. The OFers move around all the time. Some coaches influence the players positioning more than others. If you can tell me exactly how long the ball was in the air and how much ground the player covered while fielding it, you can tell me how great of a play it was. I read all of the things they do. I didn't see them taking the wind into consideration. I am not saying its a huge deal, but in OPACY, the wind shifts quite a bit during the game. On each batted ball, they can tell me how much wind played a factor?

I am not totally dismissing the stats like WC is doing, I understand its the best data available at this time. I just don't think we should use them the way we use offensive stats, and I see them used that way more than I like.

Regardless of how reliable or not reliable the exact data is, the fact that there are 6 years of data that include every play in that time frame means that the grey areas are going to even out at some point. You can get a good idea of what kind of range players have based on the plays they make from where the ball ultimately ends up and where the player started. It's taking into account so many more things (and every instance of those things for 6 years) than what a manager can consider from seeing a small fraction of plays by that player.

[Mizerooskie]

Are people really raging about an Orioles player receiving some praise? Seriously?

[AgentOrange]

Regardless of how reliable or not reliable the exact data is, the fact that there are 6 years of data that include every play in that time frame means that the grey areas are going to even out at some point. You can get a good idea of what kind of range players have based on the plays they make from where the ball ultimately ends up and where the player started. It's taking into account so many more things (and every instance of those things for 6 years) than what a manager can consider from seeing a small fraction of plays by that player.

I am done with this thread. I have already said it is the best data available. I just don't trust it as much as I would field F/X. Once that comes out, I won't argue the merit of the stats.

[DrOrioles90210]

His arm is very strong and accurate.

I agree with this, but one thing that bothers me about his throws is the trajectory. He always tries to reach the plate in the air which is never the best way of going about it. First, there's no way to cut off that kind of throw which led to a runner moving up to second just the other day. Second, once in a while he'll manage to almost reach the plate but then short hop the catcher and make the play more difficult than it should be if he threw with a lower trajectory and bounced it farther from the plate. This also cost a run the other day when Molina scored.

[AgentOrange]

I agree with this, but one thing that bothers me about his throws is the trajectory. He always tries to reach the plate in the air which is never the best way of going about it. First, there's no way to cut off that kind of throw which led to a runner moving up to second just the other day. Second, once in a while he'll manage to almost reach the plate but then short hop the catcher and make the play more difficult than it should be if he threw with a lower trajectory and bounced it farther from the plate. This also cost a run the other day when Molina scored.

I agree to a point. Yet the CFer has to also worry about the mound when throwing the ball. I was at the Molina game, he was pretty far back. Any other runner would have been safe with no problem. I think its unfair to say Jones was the reason the run scored there.

Its like a double play, it should never be assumed. That throw was a tough one to make, it was pretty far away.