Neyer on Top 10 Indiv Seasons

[wildcard]

For O's fans it has to be Frank's Triple Crown and World Series Year of 1966.

[DrungoHazewood]

For O's fans it has to be Frank's Triple Crown and World Series Year of 1966.

Do you mean as the best season by a Baltimore player, or that Orioles fans should think that Frank's 1966 season was the best ever by anyone?

In any case, Frank had a great year in '66 but Cal had at least a couple that were more valuable.

[Lucky Jim]

Cobb (and Hornsby) has the curve of history thing going against him, too. And a lot of people think he was overrated defensively.

Hornsby may have been the worst defensive second baseman to have a long career at the position. He came up in an era where second base was where you stuck your big guy who couldn't charge the bunt well enough to play third. By the end of his career a second baseman was expected to turn 120 double plays a year, and he couldn't.

From a defensive point of view Hornsby was like a guy who hit cleanup in 1914 with 5 homers, and he was still hitting cleanup in 1925 with 5 homers. It was defensible, if not really a positive thing, in 1914. It was kind of a joke in 1925. I know we're talking a few seasons with some great offense here, but think of Ryan Braun this year. He probably shouldn't have won the ROY despite slugging over .600 because his defense was awful, awful, awful.

When you're talking the best 10 seasons of all time that kind of thing eliminates you.

I guess. Except defense doesn't really seem to come into the equation in Neyer's article. And Williams, for instance, was a pretty shoddy defender. As was late-career Bonds. If you're counting defense, there's no doubt that Ruth must move ahead of Bonds - which, as far as I can tell, means that Neyer isn't counting defense.

So - Hornsby, without defense in the equation? Where does he rank?

[DrungoHazewood]

I guess. Except defense doesn't really seem to come into the equation in Neyer's article. And Williams, for instance, was a pretty shoddy defender. As was late-career Bonds. If you're counting defense, there's no doubt that Ruth must move ahead of Bonds - which, as far as I can tell, means that Neyer isn't counting defense.

So - Hornsby, without defense in the equation? Where does he rank?

Without defense his '22 and '24 seasons have to be pretty high up. Exactly where I'm not sure. Both of them were with Sportsmans Park as his home field, which was a pretty extreme hitter's park. That might knock him down a notch or two, although retrosheet has his home/road splits for '21-'22 and he hit like BJ Surhoff in a church league softball game on the road, too.

[JJLinn29]

Bob Gibson's 1968 season should be on there...

22-9, 1.12 ERA, 304 IP, 168 H, 269 K

Not to mention 28 of his 34 starts were complete games, and 13 of those 34 were shutouts.

[DrungoHazewood]

Bob Gibson's 1968 season should be on there...

22-9, 1.12 ERA, 304 IP, 168 H, 269 K

Not to mention 28 of his 34 starts were complete games, and 13 of those 34 were shutouts.

This falls into the same category as the comments about Hack Wilson. In 1968 an average National League pitcher had a 2.99 ERA. Average. Because of different conditions and rules at any given park on any given day in '68 you'd likely see a game similar to a matchup today of Erik Bedard and Johan Santana.

Gibson had a great year, but there are seven seasons with a better ERA+ in history, including Pedro's 2000 and two by Greg Maddux.

[TyCobb]

This falls into the same category as the comments about Hack Wilson. In 1968 an average National League pitcher had a 2.99 ERA. Average. Because of different conditions and rules at any given park on any given day in '68 you'd likely see a game similar to a matchup today of Erik Bedard and Johan Santana.

Gibson had a great year, but there are seven seasons with a better ERA+ in history, including Pedro's 2000 and two by Greg Maddux.

Drungo what about Steve Carlton's 1972 season? 27-10 with a 182 ERA+ for a team that almost lost a 100 games. 59-97

[Lucky Jim]

Drungo what about Steve Carlton's 1972 season? 27-10 with a 182 ERA+ for a team that almost lost a 100 games. 59-97

Yep - my favorite year from a pitcher ever. 27 wins for a team that won 59? Amazing.

[DrungoHazewood]

Drungo what about Steve Carlton's 1972 season? 27-10 with a 182 ERA+ for a team that almost lost a 100 games. 59-97

Great season, obviously. Not sure where it stands all time.

While it was a great year, he did benefit from good run support. In Carlton's 41 starts that year the Phillies averaged 3.83 runs/game. In everyone else's starts they averaged 3.01. He probably would have lost 3, 4, 5 (I'm guessing, obviously) of those wins had the team scored the same for him as they did everyone else.

It's also interesting to note that the Phillies' second best starter was Ken Reynolds, who had an ERA+ of 84 and had the misfortune of nailing the non-Carlton run support of 3.01/game. That led him to a 2-15 record. For a comparison, Daniel Cabrera had an ERA+ of 83 in 2007. So the Phillies had one starter who was significantly better than Erik Bedard, and their #2 guy was Daniel Cabrera. They got 40-some starts out of pitchers with ERA+s of 75 or below. Basically they handed the ball to Danys Baez 40 times, and that's not really an exaggeration.

I also find it interesting (and not at all surprising) that after being ridden like a rented mule in '72, Carlton's ERA+ went from 183 to 97 in '73.