New Sun article: Roberts/Penn vs Giles/LaRoche to be avoided by Angelos

[Dr. FLK]

It may be a tad early to say this. But, so far, this off season is no different than any other. We sign aging RPs. We make a contract offer to the "prize pig" of the off season only to be outbid. Then, we claim we weren't willing to go that high in this market. THEN, we hear all of the potential deals that are shot down by PA. Honestly, is anyone surprised? Does anyone expect anything different out of this offseason? Would anyone be surprised to see Millar as the everyday 1B and Luis Gonzales signed to a 4 year deal to play LF?

[Dr. FLK]

Without reading this whole thread, we would be trading Roberts for Giles who is a free agent after 2007 and says he wants to play with his brother. We wuld be also trading Penn for LaRoche. Pass on my end.

It's also interesting the Post article doesn't mention Angelos.

Roberts > Giles. But, Laroche >>> Penn. I think Laroche more than makes up for the difference in talent between Giles and Brob. The deal appears to be an absolute no brainer in my opnion.

[33rdst]

This is a very difficult choice for Angelos, the baseball aspects notwithstanding. Roberts not Miggy is the face of the franchise. Compare jerseys sold. The Orioles trading Roberts would be tantamount to the Yankees trading Jeter. That's how popular he is here. Having said that, PA still has to consider the deal if Giles will extend.

[Dr. FLK]

This is a very difficult choice for Angelos, the baseball aspects notwithstanding. Roberts not Miggy is the face of the franchise. Compare jerseys sold. The Orioles trading Roberts would be tantamount to the Yankees trading Jeter. That's how popular he is here. Having said that, PA still has to consider the deal if Giles will extend.

The difference is...the Yankees are good. A team should focus more on creating a competitive team than it does on saving fan favorites. If Giles and Laroche come here and the team actually stops stinking, then they will become fan favorites. If the team was winning and Miggy was excited to come to the park, he would be a fan favorite. If runs were actually scored for Bedard, D-cab, & Co. and they could all win 14-17 games, they would be fan favorites. Brob may be a fan favorite...heck, I own his jersey. But, this FO needs to try and win some ballgames for once. And, if dealing him helps that, so be it.

[Ruzious]

The Orioles trading Roberts would be tantamount to the Yankees trading Jeter.

I think you've just insulted the intelligence of O's fans. :002_ssleepy:

The O's should make that trade - if they can. Granted, I don't think LaRoche is quite the hitter he showed in the 2nd half of the season - when he was phenominal, but... he is an outstanding defensive 1st baseman, and Giles is a much better hitter than he showed last season - he just needs to stay healthy. Defensively, he's not quite as good as Roberts, but the difference isn't very significant.

[baltfan]

Silly to say that Angelos should stay out of this. Roberts and Tejada are the faces of the franchise. When you are looking to deal one or the other the owner has to be involved. This is a business folks. The idea is to make money. The backlash of trading a player as popular as Roberts has to be considered. Roberts has the type of dynamic persona that teams look for to put people in the seats. You have to consider that as an owner when a trade is being made. And there is not an owner in baseball that would not have input on a deal like this.

I think I have to go with BigBird on this one because Giles becomes a free agent. I am also a little concerned that Schurholtz knows something that we don't know about LaRoche and Giles. The Braves don't get fleeced very often.

[33rdst]

I think you've just insulted the intelligence of O's fans. :002_ssleepy:

The O's should make that trade - if they can. Granted, I don't think LaRoche is quite the hitter he showed in the 2nd half of the season - when he was phenominal, but... he is an outstanding defensive 1st baseman, and Giles is a much better hitter than he showed last season - he just needs to stay healthy. Defensively, he's not quite as good as Roberts, but the difference isn't very significant.

Which O's fans? The knowledgeable ones who, for the most part, visit this board or Joe everyday fan. Before you take another sentence out of context, no one is saying Brob is the player Jeter is. I would clearly argue he is as popular among O's fans as Jeter is to Yankee fans.

[bgfield]

If the O's were going to trade Roberts I'd want it to be part of a whole rebuilding process, not for a trade like this.

You can ignore the personal aspect of baseball all you want, saying winning is all that matters, but this is still a game for the fans. People here were clammering about how they don't want Bonds even if he were to have a monster season. I don't see the difference? You don't want a potentially great hitter on your team because of his bad reputation, but you don't have a problem with trading a guy for someone better despite his good reputation and heavy involvement in the community? If you're okay with trading Roberts, you should be okay with having Bonds on the team. And let's not forget, Brian actually likes playing in Baltimore. Good players who want to play here are not all that common.

From a purely statistical standpoint, you make this deal. Weighing in every aspect of the game, I don't blame Angelos one bit for being hesitant. Let Duquette try to find a way to get LaRoche without trading Brian.

[33rdst]

The difference is...the Yankees are good. A team should focus more on creating a competitive team than it does on saving fan favorites. If Giles and Laroche come here and the team actually stops stinking, then they will become fan favorites. If the team was winning and Miggy was excited to come to the park, he would be a fan favorite. If runs were actually scored for Bedard, D-cab, & Co. and they could all win 14-17 games, they would be fan favorites. Brob may be a fan favorite...heck, I own his jersey. But, this FO needs to try and win some ballgames for once. And, if dealing him helps that, so be it.

If...... is a very important word in your statement. Angelos has to decide if it's the right move on all levles.

[baltfan]

Atlanta Journal Constitution article doesn't even mention Orioles.

Lake Buena Vista, Fla. — When general manager John Schuerholz says the Braves are trying to make moves to improve their pitching, he's talking about more than Tanyon Sturtze, the middling middle reliever they signed Sunday.

On the first full day of baseball's winter meetings Monday at Disney World, the Braves and at least five teams discussed trades that could bring Atlanta an elite setup man and a left-handed reliever, with second baseman Marcus Giles and possibly first baseman Adam LaRoche among those who could be involved.

The Los Angeles Angels have strong interest in LaRoche, and the Braves might listen if the Angels are willing to part with a package that includes utility man Chone Figgins and a pitcher. However, the Angels consider 23-year-old starter Ervin Santana and top setup man Scot Shields nearly untouchable.

"A healthy Sturtze is a plus for our pitching staff," Schuerholz said of the former Yankees right-hander, who the Braves hope will rebound from rotator cuff surgery to help their bullpen by May. "But we're looking beyond that. ...

"There's no sense getting too terribly optimistic because at the last minute something may turn. The reality is, we feel good about some dealings we're having and we're hopeful it pays dividends for us."

The Braves would like to land an eighth-inning man to strengthen the bridge between their starters and closer Bob Wickman. San Diego's Scott Linebrink is another potential target, but the Padres would prefer to keep him.

The Padres need a second baseman and like Giles, a San Diego native whose brother, Brian, is a Padres outfielder. Marcus stands to make more than $5 million as a fifth-year arbitration-eligible player, and the Braves think they can fill in with a less costly player, perhaps Figgins, who could hit leadoff.

The Braves have young middle infielders capable of playing second, but Schuerholz said shortstop prospect Yunel Escobar isn't ready to play second in the majors and Willy Aybar will likely remain in a backup role.

Figgins, 28, a native of Leary, Ga., is a .285 career hitter who's played all infield positions except first and all outfield positions. He's probably good enough to start at second base and his speed — 35 triples and 148 stolen bases in the past three seasons — makes him a potential leadoff man.

Schuerholz wouldn't discuss potential trade targets but answered questions about potential in-house replacements for Giles.

"We like [Aybar] in the role he's in, which is a Wilson Betemit role," Schuerholz said, "a super-utility player, switch-hitter, who can play more at second and third [if starters are injured]."

Pressed further about who might bat leadoff and/or replace Giles at second, Schuerholz said, "We have plans. We're not conferring [the job] on anyone."

He reiterated what he's said before: Getting a leadoff hitter isn't a priority. Pitching is.

"We scored more than enough runs last year without a proven leadoff hitter," Schuerholz said. "If we pitch better, it won't matter as much who hits leadoff."

The Braves have heard some offers for starting pitcher Tim Hudson, who hasn't met expectations in two seasons and is owed $32 million over the next three seasons.

But they wouldn't trade Hudson unless they could get another proven starter.

Pittsburgh also has interest in LaRoche, who hit .285 with 32 homers and 90 RBIs last season, and could make about $2 million in his first year of arbitration. The Pirates have a wealth of young pitchers but are reluctant to trade any.

[Pruke]

If the O's were going to trade Roberts I'd want it to be part of a whole rebuilding process, not for a trade like this.

You can ignore the personal aspect of baseball all you want, saying winning is all that matters, but this is still a game for the fans. People here were clammering about how they don't want Bonds even if he were to have a monster season. I don't see the difference? You don't want a potentially great hitter on your team because of his bad reputation, but you don't have a problem with trading a guy for someone better despite his good reputation and heavy involvement in the community? If you're okay with trading Roberts, you should be okay with having Bonds on the team. And let's not forget, Brian actually likes playing in Baltimore. Good players who want to play here are not all that common.

From a purely statistical standpoint, you make this deal. Weighing in every aspect of the game, I don't blame Angelos one bit for being hesitant. Let Duquette try to find a way to get LaRoche without trading Brian.

this is definitely a tough call but if the O's believe they will be competing next year, they certainly need to continue looking for trades the result in NET gains for the team, even if it means they give up something good.

the one interesting point here is that Frank Wren is sitting over there will Shuerholtz and probably thinks this would be a steal from their perspective. the question then becomes - what GM (or Asst GM) knows more about the health / talent levels of those involved in the discussion.

[tennOsfan]

Roberts > Giles. But, Laroche >>> Penn. I think Laroche more than makes up for the difference in talent between Giles and Brob. The deal appears to be an absolute no brainer in my opnion.

Take a good critical look at the stats on baseballreference.com for Roberts vs. Giles. There's no way you can rate Roberts' talent less than Giles, from an analytical sense. Giles has the better track record on offense - even in an off-year last season, his OBP was similar to Brian's. And Giles has the better range factor through the years when evaluated against the league average.

Roberts could only be considered more valuable if you consider the greater control we'd have over him.

If Giles would sign an extension, I'd do this trade even though I'm a big fan of Brian's (even if we keep BRob, we're going to need to ante up for a big extension). This trade would make our team better, which should be the bottom line. We'd be using Penn as the bargaining chip we'd need to add a power-hitting first baseman without compromising second base. That's what smart teams do.

I am concerned about LaRoche's numbers against lefties over three years, but the bottom line is we'd improve by leaps and bounds at first base.

[Witchy_Chick]

Oh, Cindy, Witchy, what do you say about trading Brian?

I honestly cannot be objective about this rumor. LaRoche is potentially everything we are looking for in a first baseman. Good glove, finally has come around offensively (due to the Ritalin?), young, under club control for a few more years, yada yada yada. But Brian is a high price to pay for that type of player. I'm not so much pressed about trading Penn -- and that has nothing to do with the fact that he's not my boy, but rather the starting pitching is finally becoming a position of depth. We need to work from that depth to get the pieces we need -- and LaRoche is potentially that. The Giles part of this rumor worries me. He's not going to sign an extension here. Nor will he stick around here once he becomes a FA. So, we'd be trading Brian and Penn for LaRoche and one year of Marcus Giles. Do we have any 2B depth in the minors to take over for Giles in 2008? Or have we traded it all to the Cubs?

From a purely statistical standpoint, you make this deal. Weighing in every aspect of the game, I don't blame Angelos one bit for being hesitant. Let Duquette try to find a way to get LaRoche without trading Brian.

I don't think this is an option. Contrary to what Schuerholz stated in the AJ-C (spin?), Atlanta needs a leadoff guy. If this rumor has any legs to it, Brian is an integral piece for Atlanta. I don't think they would do a deal without Brian in it. My 2¢.

Witchy

[tennOsfan]

You can ignore the personal aspect of baseball all you want, saying winning is all that matters, but this is still a game for the fans. People here were clammering about how they don't want Bonds even if he were to have a monster season. I don't see the difference? You don't want a potentially great hitter on your team because of his bad reputation, but you don't have a problem with trading a guy for someone better despite his good reputation and heavy involvement in the community? If you're okay with trading Roberts, you should be okay with having Bonds on the team. And let's not forget, Brian actually likes playing in Baltimore. Good players who want to play here are not all that common.

As one of those ready to jump off the ledge upon a Bonds signing, I'll respond to this. There's a big difference here, and it's this: Bonds is a jerk and would disgrace the Oriole uniform in his pursuit of Aaron's record, making us a laughing stock of baseball as the graveyard of old sluggers. On the other hand, we have no reason to think Giles and LaRoche wouldn't be solid citizens of this franchise. BRob likes playing in Baltimore because he is used to it, and he makes statements about Baltimore because that's just the right thing to do. But I bet you he'd ditch that town in a second to play in just one playoff series somewhere.

Improve this team, and BRob's "preference" for Baltimore wouldn't be that rare among MLB players.

[tennOsfan]

What about Ray and Penn for LaRoche? Is that more than we want to pay? At least it keeps BRob out of it.