Orioles Pitching without Wieters

[Can_of_corn]

What exactly do you mean by agendas? Seriously. I would love to know what possible motivations might be there.

Nothing big just to promote their pro and anti Wieters arguments.

[Can_of_corn]

What strawman? After 12 games, it looks to ME as if there is no negative effect on the pitchers with Clevenger and Joseph catching. Confirmation bias? Absolutely. Not enough statistical history to say for certain? Sure. For years some posters have applauded Wieters for his calling of pitches and handling of pitchers. I never bought that. I'm not waiting 3 years or 100 games to state that opinion. I state that "this should at the very least" end the idea that Wieters has some magical powers behind the plate. If saying that makes it sounds like I'm making the opposing opinion worthless then go buy a crying towel.

I never said that the pitchers are better with Clevenger or Joseph, although it would be funny (to me) if it turned out that way.

Of course Wieters is traveling with the team and I believe he is helping Clevenger and Joseph gameplan.

[bpilktree]

They have a catchers ERA stat.

Clevenger is 4.34 this year

Wieters is 3.93 this year

Joseph is 2.31 in his 4 games.

So small sample size and all Matt has been better then Clevenger over the year.

[DrungoHazewood]

They have a catchers ERA stat.

Clevenger is 4.34 this year

Wieters is 3.93 this year

Joseph is 2.31 in his 4 games.

So small sample size and all Matt has been better then Clevenger over the year.

In order for this to have any real meaning you'd have to normalize for opponent, pitcher, park, weather, etc, etc, etc. And then regress very heavily to the mean. Straight CERA between catchers is apples to pomegranates.

[bpilktree]

In order for this to have any real meaning you'd have to normalize for opponent, pitcher, park, weather, etc, etc, etc. And then regress very heavily to the mean. Straight CERA between catchers is apples to pomegranates.

I agree i was just refuting the stats for the OP that show Matt's numbers are no worse the Steve's

[weams]

In order for this to have any real meaning you'd have to normalize for opponent, pitcher, park, weather, etc, etc, etc. And then regress very heavily to the mean. Straight CERA between catchers is apples to pomegranates.

And the samples size would need to be much greater. Even then.

[SeaBird]

Eh the Yanks will still pay em

Why. Are they going to dump McCann ?

[TonySoprano]

What strawman? After 12 games, it looks to ME as if there is no negative effect on the pitchers with Clevenger and Joseph catching. Confirmation bias? Absolutely. Not enough statistical history to say for certain? Sure. For years some posters have applauded Wieters for his calling of pitches and handling of pitchers. I never bought that. I'm not waiting 3 years or 100 games to state that opinion. I state that "this should at the very least" end the idea that Wieters has some magical powers behind the plate. If saying that makes it sounds like I'm making the opposing opinion worthless then go buy a crying towel.

I never said that the pitchers are better with Clevenger or Joseph, although it would be funny (to me) if it turned out that way.

So now you choose to triple down. "Crying towel?" "3 years" wasn't a strawman? O.K.

It's ironic that you were rolling eyes over the comment "A week and a half of data is not enough to declare anything." Now you've gone back and conceded that point. "Confirmation bias? Absolutely. Not enough statistical history to say for certain? Sure" Next you'll dig in your heels further and claim that was your point all along.

[Can_of_corn]

I'm sure Wieters will get credit one way or another.

Or blame, depending on the poster.

[weams]

Or blame, depending on the poster.

I vacillate, myself. Because. Boras.

[24fps]

I think comments in this thread and the many, many other catching threads suggest that some posters think that catchers can have almost mysterious, unquantifiable abilities to influence the performance of pitchers. I certainly don't.

But some pitchers definitely prefer one catcher over another. Greg Maddux's insistence on Eddie Perez comes immediately to mind. I support the notion that it's all to easy to read too much into a catcher's ability to influence a pitcher's performance by watching from the outside, but I would love to have the Orioles' pitching staff's take on this debate. A pitcher's confidence level in his catcher could have a beneficial effect on his performance.

[Can_of_corn]

But some pitchers definitely prefer one catcher over another. Greg Maddux's insistence on Eddie Perez comes immediately to mind. I support the notion that it's all to easy to read too much into a catcher's ability to influence a pitcher's performance by watching from the outside, but I would love to have the Orioles' pitching staff's take on this debate. A pitcher's confidence level in his catcher could have a beneficial effect on his performance.

You couldn't trust them to tell the truth.

[OriolesMagic83]

I'm not an expert in advanced metrics like many people here. My take is that Wieters is/was? a great thrower, but otherwise mediocre at catcher. What young starting pitcher has really improved under his tutelage? Tillman is the only pitcher I can think of. What effect did he have on Matusz, Arrietta, Britton, etc. Our starting pitchers as a group have seemed to be undisciplined and lack a game plan since Weiters has been here. I know that's not only Matt's responsibility, but he has to take a good chunk of the blame. Also, our starting pitching as a whole is near the bottom of rankings of starting staffs. How come starting pitchers on other staffs improve, but almost never on the O's? Again, not all Matt's fault, but he has to take some of the blame.

The guy is who he is, a low to mid .700 OPS hitter w/ a low OBP and 20 or so home runs. He is also average at best behind the plate. The O's need to let another team pay him $15 mill/yr. I'll take the $10 mill+ saved and use it toward a real power hitter at another position.

[Can_of_corn]

I'm not an expert in advanced metrics like many people here. My take is that Wieters is/was? a great thrower, but otherwise mediocre at catcher. What young starting pitcher has really improved under his tutelage? Tillman is the only pitcher I can think of. What effect did he have on Matusz, Arrietta, Britton, etc. Our starting pitchers as a group have seemed to be undisciplined and lack a game plan since Weiters has been here. I know that's not only Matt's responsibility, but he has to take a good chunk of the blame. Also, our starting pitching as a whole is near the bottom of rankings of starting staffs. How come starting pitchers on other staffs improve, but almost never on the O's? Again, not all Matt's fault, but he has to take some of the blame.

The guy is who he is, a low to mid .700 OPS hitter w/ a low OBP and 20 or so home runs. He is also average at best behind the plate. The O's need to let another team pay him $15 mill/yr. I'll take the $10 mill+ saved and use it toward a real power hitter at another position.

Mediocre catchers don't win the Fielding Bible award over Yadier Molina.

[El Gordo]

A catcher has to know each SP makeup and work with it. He has to know the game plan worked out prior, but he has to make adjustments according to the pitchers stuff that day and how the bats are reacting to it. He is the best judge of what is working and what is not that day. He also establishes a rapport with the umpire and can get as many as 8-10 pitches called his way if he does this well. He can also get into a batters head with his chatter. How can anyone know how well a catcher does these things? But they are certainly an important part of his job.