Peter Angelos' Redemption

[BradyBunch]

So what? It was still idiotic to fire Davy after he led the team to two straight ALCS's.

He wasn't fired. He resigned.

[Redskins Rick]

You mean like when Moose pitched for the O's for another two years (til 2000)? The O's didn't appoint some backwater coaches after Davy.. Ray Miller and Mike Hargrove.

Facts are the 1998-2001 orioles were old. 1998 team average age for position plus DH was 34 years old. Youngest starter was 27 in 1999.

Miller while a very good pitching coach, was not a good choice for manager.

If you don't believe the firing of Davey had a negative impact on the clubhouse, then I don't know what to say. It effected team moral for sure.

Yes, they were getting older.

Angelos was involved too much with the teams, until Andy was hired.

[Yardball85]

Who knows, baseball is business. Lots of things can happen for the right price considering in 1992 the SF Giants almost moved to Tampa but owners nixed the deal. Also the team could have easily folded and been part of 1995 expansion.

What I am pointing out is that say the O's go .500 plus in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2004 and 2005 (which as a team they had the ability to be that those seasons) can you seriously say it was a long dry spell? No, you really can't in reality it was 7 years in which the Orioles didn't compete at all and those 7 years of which 5 of them were 90 plus lost seasons. In terms of baseball history, that's a few years. That's nothing compared to the Royals who had 20 losing seasons.

It was a hideously long dry spell. The team severely lacked talent in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007. Their big acquisitions to fix these problems in the early 2000s were Deivi Cruz, Marty Cordova, Chris Singleton, Omar Daal, and Rick Helling.

And guess what - they WEREN'T .500 in those years they mentioned - so yes, it was a horrendously long dry spell, largely thanks to the owner's interference with his GMs baseball moves and unwillingness to spend to improve the team and/or properly build the farm system.

[Yardball85]

He wasn't fired. He resigned.

Ok sorry. The manager that guided the team to two straight ALCS's resigned (after another playoff dry spell, I may add) because of a spat with the owner - say what you want, Davy wouldn't have left if not for PA.

[BradyBunch]

Miller while a very good pitching coach, was not a good choice for manager.

If you don't believe the firing of Davey had a negative impact on the clubhouse, then I don't know what to say. It effected team moral for sure.

Yes, they were getting older.

Angelos was involved too much with the teams, until Andy was hired.

I never said I didn't believe it didn't have an effect, but Managers get fired all the time. Ray Miller came from in house and the players knew him so as much as people say there was a negative effect, the players were familiar with him. Plus there is no way to say the team would have been a play off team in 1998 or 1999 with Davey as well. The team was just getting older and older.

[Redskins Rick]

For the record, it wasn't a petty spat.

There was a bitter feud going on between the two.

[Redskins Rick]

I never said I didn't believe it didn't have an effect, but Managers get fired all the time. Ray Miller came from in house and the players knew him so as much as people say there was a negative effect, the players were familiar with him. Plus there is no way to say the team would have been a play off team in 1998 or 1999 with Davey as well. The team was just getting older and older.

Correct no way to say what might have been.

But, that was the start of a downhill spiral.

[ShaneDawg85]

At the end of the day there's no erasing the 1998-2011 dark ages. There simply isn't. We can sit here and try to isolate things and say some years were better than others, or things should have been better some years than they were, but at the end of the day they were all still losers. Spin it any way you want, that's unavoidable and through all of that there was one constant, Peter Angelos.

Having said that, the narrative on Peter Angelos is still being written, and while we cannot nor should we ever forget the dark ages, lest they happen again, life shows us that people can change the way they operate and how they do things. It took a long time, but Angelos finally started to trust his baseball people, he brought in good baseball people, he brought in the best possible manager for this organization, and he's let baseball people run the organization. Winning this season, or winning it all won't erase over a decade of lost baseball, and nor should it. However, we don't get to this point if Angelos hadn't evolved, and that point can't be understated.

[Redskins Rick]

At the end of the day there's no erasing the 1998-2011 dark ages. There simply isn't. We can sit here and try to isolate things and say some years were better than others, or things should have been better some years than they were, but at the end of the day they were all still losers. Spin it any way you want, that's unavoidable and through all of that there was one constant, Peter Angelos.

Having said that, the narrative on Peter Angelos is still being written, and while we cannot nor should we ever forget the dark ages, lest they happen again, life shows us that people can change the way they operate and how they do things. It took a long time, but Angelos finally started to trust his baseball people, he brought in good baseball people, he brought in the best possible manager for this organization, and he's let baseball people run the organization. Winning this season, or winning it all won't erase over a decade of lost baseball, and nor should it. However, we don't get to this point if Angelos hadn't evolved, and that point can't be understated.

Nice post and thankfully, that losing ERA is over.

Free Agents want to come to Baltimore now.

We got one of the best managers and GM in the game.

[George Zuverink]

While we're waxing metaphysical here, the posts I find hard to digest are from "diehard fans" unable to feel and express anger without hatred.

[BradyBunch]

It was a hideously long dry spell. The team severely lacked talent in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007. Their big acquisitions to fix these problems in the early 2000s were Deivi Cruz, Marty Cordova, Chris Singleton, Omar Daal, and Rick Helling.

2000 Orioles: Charles Johnson, Jeff Conine, Will Clark, Delino DeShields, Mike Bordick, Brady Anderson, Albert Belle, B.J. Surhoff, Harold Baines. Oh and Mussina was still pitching.

So you think the 2000 team lacked talent? Go look at Delino DeShields, Albert Belle, B.J. Surhoff, even Brady Anderson stats for that season. That team had talent and ability, they were just aging.

O's brought in a lot of named players. Tony Batista, Javy Lopez, Miguel Tejada, Jason Grimsley and brought back Palmeiro. Even traded for Melvin Mora in 2000 which paid off dividends.

And guess what - they WEREN'T .500 in those years they mentioned - so yes, it was a horrendously long dry spell, largely thanks to the owner's interference with his GMs baseball moves and unwillingness to spend to improve the team and/or properly build the farm system.

They were damn close to .500 season. Just as damn close as the Orioles being a 70 win team instead of 93 win team in 2012. Bad luck and horrible breaks killed those teams in 1998 - 2001.

I just gave you 3 or 4 "name" players brought in post 2000, include Albert Belle and you got 4 or 5 names. Albert Belle signed a 5 year deal in 1999 and played 2 or the 5 seasons. His injury and the fact the O's had to keep him on the 25 man roster or have the insurance against his contract revoked is a big deal for a team.

O's signed FAs and some good players during that "horrendously long dry spell". In fact, O's got some damn fine work out of those FAs when signed. It also discounts the fact the O's did spend, when their payroll in 1999 was $80 million and $82 million in 2000. Once 2001 came around it was about replacing vets with younger players which always means a huge pay difference, then Albert Belle was hurt it wiped $12 plus million off the payroll but held up a 25 man roster slot. So come 2002, your pay roll is $60 million because you clean off Cal and Brady contracts plus Belle.

Lowest salary year for the O's was 2004, there was alot of $65-70 million years and even a $93 million year in 2007. So it's not the O's weren't still middle of the pack in spending at the time.

The only reason the O's have a decent farm system now is because they did suck pretty badly from 2006-2011 and had a few bad years between 1999-2003. Players drafted by the O's in the 1st round during because of those years.

Nick Markakis, Matt Wieters, Brian Matusz, Manny Machado, Dylan Bundy, and Kevin Gausman.

5 of them are part of this 2014 team and key parts. So without those bad years.. are we even in the playoffs this year?

Some times you have to lose to rebuild your farm system and sometimes YOU as fan can't expect the world over night because money don't fix the problems the Org has had since the mid 1990s.

[BradyBunch]

Correct no way to say what might have been.

But, that was the start of a downhill spiral.

Yes, but to assume it was cause of Davey leaving is ignoring the fact the O's team of the 1996 and 1997 were old and just getting older. That team basically stayed together for 4 years after that. There was nobody in the farm system to come up. So the O's (PA) had two choices. 1) spend like the Yankees 100% of the time and risk going bankrupt or B) set a budget, live in that budget and build the farm system.

I am glad PA and the O's front office went with option two as we'd be stuck like the Yankees.

[BradyBunch]

Ok sorry. The manager that guided the team to two straight ALCS's resigned (after another playoff dry spell, I may add) because of a spat with the owner - say what you want, Davy wouldn't have left if not for PA.

Davey would have never been hired if not for PA either. BFD.

[ShaneDawg85]

2000 Orioles: Charles Johnson, Jeff Conine, Will Clark, Delino DeShields, Mike Bordick, Brady Anderson, Albert Belle, B.J. Surhoff, Harold Baines. Oh and Mussina was still pitching.

So you think the 2000 team lacked talent? Go look at Delino DeShields, Albert Belle, B.J. Surhoff, even Brady Anderson stats for that season. That team had talent and ability, they were just aging.

O's brought in a lot of named players. Tony Batista, Javy Lopez, Miguel Tejada, Jason Grimsley and brought back Palmeiro. Even traded for Melvin Mora in 2000 which paid off dividends.

They were damn close to .500 season. Just as damn close as the Orioles being a 70 win team instead of 93 win team in 2012. Bad luck and horrible breaks killed those teams in 1998 - 2001.

I just gave you 3 or 4 "name" players brought in post 2000, include Albert Belle and you got 4 or 5 names. Albert Belle signed a 5 year deal in 1999 and played 2 or the 5 seasons. His injury and the fact the O's had to keep him on the 25 man roster or have the insurance against his contract revoked is a big deal for a team.

O's signed FAs and some good players during that "horrendously long dry spell". In fact, O's got some damn fine work out of those FAs when signed. It also discounts the fact the O's did spend, when their payroll in 1999 was $80 million and $82 million in 2000. Once 2001 came around it was about replacing vets with younger players which always means a huge pay difference, then Albert Belle was hurt it wiped $12 plus million off the payroll but held up a 25 man roster slot. So come 2002, your pay roll is $60 million because you clean off Cal and Brady contracts plus Belle.

Lowest salary year for the O's was 2004, there was alot of $65-70 million years and even a $93 million year in 2007. So it's not the O's weren't still middle of the pack in spending at the time.

The only reason the O's have a decent farm system now is because they did suck pretty badly from 2006-2011 and had a few bad years between 1999-2003. Players drafted by the O's in the 1st round during because of those years.

Nick Markakis, Matt Wieters, Brian Matusz, Manny Machado, Dylan Bundy, and Kevin Gausman.

5 of them are part of this 2014 team and key parts. So without those bad years.. are we even in the playoffs this year?

Some times you have to lose to rebuild your farm system and sometimes YOU as fan can't expect the world over night because money don't fix the problems the Org has had since the mid 1990s.

The 2000 team had names and some talent, but they were aging and severely deficient in talent in several areas. The pitching was atrocious. Sidney Ponson, Pat Rapp, Jason Johnson, and an aging and injured Scott Erickson made up the rotation after Mussina. When your second best pitcher after Mike Mussina is journeyman Jose Mercedes, you are not talented. Then the bullpen, good night. Chuck McElroy, Mike Trombley, Buddy Groom, Mike Timlin, Alan Mills, and other luminaries. They had no defense to speak of, and their offense while one of the best in team history, paled in comparison to the rest of the bloated league. The 2000 team had some names, but that doesn't equal talent, and it doesn't equal wins. That team was an absolute mess that was blown up a year, maybe two years too late.

[glenn__davis]

"A few lean years"????

It was 14 years of not just losing seasons, but losing seasons in which the team was almost always out of the race by August! I remember talking to some friends during that decade and a half of crap and saying that I just wanted to see the team play 1 meaningful game in September!

That is not a string of bad luck and breaks that are just part of sports. 14 years of suckitude doesn't just happen. It's systemic. How much of that is to place at Angelos' feet is debatable, but you can't just attribute it to the randomness of sports.