2/23 Terps vs. Canes/ Gary Williams' status debate

[AgentOrange]

Right, you're the model of consistent arguments

Wow. Circle gets the square.

[Sports Guy]

Things are bad. How do you define temporarily bad? Isn't that all perception? My perception is that they've been bad since the NC and things keep getting worse.

This was brought up because of results. Gary's results as of late have been abysmal. As I've said the whole time, I said that if he makes the tourney, he can stay. If he turns it around and wins these last 3, as I've said all along, I'd be incredibly happy and welcome him back next year with the expectation that we continue on the right track. If he doesn't, I'm ready for a new coach.

2 NITs is bad but every program goes through ups and downs. UNC, twice in this decade, failed to make any postseason tourney.

This year, since its not over and you have no idea what the outcome is, can't be classified as anything.

Last year, Duke struggled...They went 8-8 in conference and lost to VCU in the first round of the tourney...Part of that was chemistry and another part of it was youth...When you are a very young team, you are bound to struggle.

MD is having that issue this year.

[bryanman8]

Right, you're the model of consistent arguments

Ok, so what I meant was that Hayes was doomed here from the start because he can't run the curl at the foul line which is just about the only play we run right now and can't create his own shot against more physical, ACC players. I'm saying that guys like JJ, Paulus, Scheyer, etc. weren't the most physical players in the world either and couldn't really get off their own shots but were still very successful because the system they played in got them open looks. If you know that your system can't create open looks for anyone and doesn't rely on the three-pointer at all, why recruit a guy like Hayes, who all he can do is shoot?

In the right system, Hayes would be a pretty good shooter and scorer. In our system, he's worthless.

[Sports Guy]

Ok, so what I meant was that Hayes was doomed here from the start because he can't run the curl at the foul line which is just about the only play we run right now and can't create his own shot against more physical, ACC players. I'm saying that guys like JJ, Paulus, Scheyer, etc. weren't the most physical players in the world either and couldn't really get off their own shots but were still very successful because the system they played in got them open looks. If you know that your system can't create open looks for anyone and doesn't rely on the three-pointer at all, why recruit a guy like Hayes, who all he can do is shoot?

In the right system, Hayes would be a pretty good shooter and scorer. In our system, he's worthless.

JJ Redick was a great shooter...Hayes isn't close to him.

However, the biggest attribute of JJ was his ability to move without the ball...That is all about hustle and heart.

[Mackus]

2 NITs is bad but every program goes through ups and downs. UNC, twice in this decade, failed to make any postseason tourney.

This year, since its not over and you have no idea what the outcome is, can't be classified as anything.

Last year, Duke struggled...They went 8-8 in conference and lost to VCU in the first round of the tourney...Part of that was chemistry and another part of it was youth...When you are a very young team, you are bound to struggle.

MD is having that issue this year.

In all honesty, I think this is the first year that Gary would deserve the bulk of the blame if we don't make the tournament.

The guys on the team right now are the guys he wanted or was able to land.

In 2005, we were coming off 2 straight NCAA tournament runs following the NC (Blake's senior year and the year we won the ACC tournament). Gilchrist, off his big performance in Charlottesville, tried to take over the team and dominate every game. He became a headcase and by the end of the year was essentially off the team. I don't think Gary deserves the bulk of the criticism for that team. The following year, the same thing happened except it happened earlier, with Chris McCray failing out of school in December. Losing your best player in midseason is a very hard thing for any team to overcome. Again, he's not the main culprit for us missing the tournament that season.

Now if we don't make it this season, its Gary's fault. Gist underachieving late is disappointing, but the makeup of the team is the major flaw. That's on Gary.

So essentially this will be the first time since 1993 that the team didn't make the tournament as a result of the players Gary brought in not being good enough to get us there (if we even miss out, which is far from certain).

[bryanman8]

JJ Redick was a great shooter...Hayes isn't close to him.

However, the biggest attribute of JJ was his ability to move without the ball...That is all about hustle and heart.

Sophomore years:

FG%:

Hayes: 43.3

Redick: 42.3

3PT%:

Hayes: 40.4

Redick: 39.5

And yet, Redick scored almost 6 more points per game. He took almost twice as many threes as Hayes.

So again, please tell me why Hayes can't be similar in that he just has to run around screens and get the ball and shoot the dang thing? How can you even have him in the game in the 2nd half yesterday if he's gonna be a SG and not even touch the ball really or run any plays for him?

This is a guy who I think could have scored 15 PPG for Duke this year in your D'Antoni, drive and kick the ball around for an open-three offense. Instead, he's stuck doing close to nothing against any good competition in ours.

Our offensive system is outdated and doesn't work, imo. We don't have any sort of consistency in the plays we run and what we try and do in our attack. You look and you see that Duke is a team that appreciates the value of the three, they jack up like 20 threes a game. Maryland takes maybe like 3. And we have good shooters in Hayes, GV, and Milbourne that can knock them down. Our system just doesn't get the best of our abilities.

[Mackus]

Sophomore years:

FG%:

Hayes: 43.3

Redick: 42.3

3PT%:

Hayes: 40.4

Redick: 39.5

And yet, Redick scored almost 6 more points per game. He took almost twice as many threes as Hayes.

So again, please tell me why Hayes can't be similar in that he just has to run around screens and get the ball and shoot the dang thing? How can you even have him in the game in the 2nd half yesterday if he's gonna be a SG and not even touch the ball really or run any plays for him?

This is a guy who I think could have scored 15 PPG for Duke this year in your D'Antoni, drive and kick the ball around for an open-three offense. Instead, he's stuck doing close to nothing against any good competition in ours.

Our offensive system is outdated and doesn't work, imo. We don't have any sort of consistency in the plays we run and what we try and do in our attack. You look and you see that Duke is a team that appreciates the value of the three, they jack up like 20 threes a game. Maryland takes maybe like 3. And we have good shooters in Hayes, GV, and Milbourne that can knock them down. Our system just doesn't get the best of our abilities.

If you think Hayes and Reddick are similarly talented shooters, then I don't know what to tell you.

Hayes shoots nearly exclusively wide open 3's. Reddick took many more shots (harder to keep up as high a percentage) and did it despite always being the guy that every team's defense keyed on.

Mike Jones was similar to Reddick from the outside, he had the same range and quick shot. Reddick still is the overall better shooter just because of how good he was at getting enough space to get a shot off and still being able to hit it at a high rate. Hayes is nowhere close to Reddick (or Mike Jones for that matter) in being able to get off tough shots and still be able to knock them down.

And the flex offense is far from outdated. If it is outdated, thats gotta be a world record for fastest "aging" of an offensive system, going from one of the very best offenses in all of college basketball to completely outdated in just a couple seasons. The flex works, this team just has a lack of overall talent and no depth to speak of.

[Sports Guy]

Sophomore years:

FG%:

Hayes: 43.3

Redick: 42.3

3PT%:

Hayes: 40.4

Redick: 39.5

And yet, Redick scored almost 6 more points per game. He took almost twice as many threes as Hayes.

So again, please tell me why Hayes can't be similar in that he just has to run around screens and get the ball and shoot the dang thing? How can you even have him in the game in the 2nd half yesterday if he's gonna be a SG and not even touch the ball really or run any plays for him?

This is a guy who I think could have scored 15 PPG for Duke this year in your D'Antoni, drive and kick the ball around for an open-three offense. Instead, he's stuck doing close to nothing against any good competition in ours.

Our offensive system is outdated and doesn't work, imo. We don't have any sort of consistency in the plays we run and what we try and do in our attack. You look and you see that Duke is a team that appreciates the value of the three, they jack up like 20 threes a game. Maryland takes maybe like 3. And we have good shooters in Hayes, GV, and Milbourne that can knock them down. Our system just doesn't get the best of our abilities.

Why don't you just look at wins and ERAs to determine who are better pitchers too?

[JohnD]

Wow. Circle gets the square.

That actually made me laugh out loud a bit.

[Sports Guy]

Go to MD...Walk into that incredible arena....Once you do that, you know why Gary has a lifetime pass.

Have they named the court after Gary yet btw?

[Fairfax Bird]

Outstanding post

The reason Hayes is having problems getting looks right now has zero to do with Gary. He simply isn't moving hard enough w/o the ball. He caught the ball on curls like 10 times yesterday and his man was on his shoulder every time but one (the first three of the game), because he wasn't moving fast enough. I don't know if it is conditioning or will, but Hayes' problem getting shots has zero to do with Gary Williams right now.

I think there has been speculation that his ankle is still bothering him.

[Tony-OH]

I think you guys are being a little hard on Bryan here. It's great that there are so many people here who love Gary Williams and would never want him fired. He deserves respect without a doubt and I've been on the fence with him only because of his poor recruiting record.

The one thing I don't get is why people villify dissenters or those who point out some obvious weak points in the Maryland program, points that Gary has to take responsibility for. Now I certainly understand and respect what Gary Williams has done for Maryland, and I truly like him as an in game coach and the intensity he brings to the court, but I certainly see people like Bryan who are frustrated by a lack of high end talent coming through college park.

We play in a great conference, in a great basketball area, with great facilities yet some of you I beleive think we should be happy with a mid-level recruits.

Personally, I think Gary has been lacking in recruiting for years and got real lazy after he won his national championship when I think he believed the talent faucet would just open up because of the exposure.

What's apparent is he's recruited a lot of under achievers in Caner-Medley, Garrision, Gilchrist, McCray, and Gist just to name a few. Now it can be argued that he did not develop them or they were not good character guys, but again, if they were suspect character guys, he has to take responsibility for that as well.

I have a hard time believing that Gary doesn't develop players well because I don't think even his worse critic would beleive Gary doesn't work hard on the court or in the Gym. so that leads me to believe he either over estimates how much he can develop a player who he lacks in good talent evaluations.

Basically, I like Gary Williams as coach, but I don't think he deserves a lifetime contract either because of what he's done. If the program becomes a second class program within the ACC then he has to go because there is no reason for it. Maryland should be a perrenial top 25 team and going to the NIT 3 times in 4 years is unacceptable and he should be ashamed of himself for allowing it to get to this point.

I'm hoping the next recruiting classes are as good as crstoner97 says and that this the bottom for the program. I hope Gary Williams can turn it around and get the program back where it should be. But, if it appears the next group of guys are duds too, I think it's time to ask Gary to resign for the good of the program.

[Tony-OH]

Sophomore years:

FG%:

Hayes: 43.3

Redick: 42.3

3PT%:

Hayes: 40.4

Redick: 39.5

And yet, Redick scored almost 6 more points per game. He took almost twice as many threes as Hayes.

So again, please tell me why Hayes can't be similar in that he just has to run around screens and get the ball and shoot the dang thing? How can you even have him in the game in the 2nd half yesterday if he's gonna be a SG and not even touch the ball really or run any plays for him?

This is a guy who I think could have scored 15 PPG for Duke this year in your D'Antoni, drive and kick the ball around for an open-three offense. Instead, he's stuck doing close to nothing against any good competition in ours.

Our offensive system is outdated and doesn't work, imo. We don't have any sort of consistency in the plays we run and what we try and do in our attack. You look and you see that Duke is a team that appreciates the value of the three, they jack up like 20 threes a game. Maryland takes maybe like 3. And we have good shooters in Hayes, GV, and Milbourne that can knock them down. Our system just doesn't get the best of our abilities.

I have to disagree here Bryan. We have a lack of talent, not a bad system. Williams has used the same system and has a lot of success using it and there is no indication that it's suddenly outdated.

Maryland teams like to run and score in transition and that's what they are good at. I agree with the other guys that said that Hayes is nowhere near the shooter that Reddick was. If he took as many shots as Reddick his FG% would plummet, because he would have to takle much tougher shots.

[Sports Guy]

I think part of the problem some on here are having is that they expect MD to be Duke or UNC. One NC doesn't make you a program at that level.

[Mackus]

I think part of the problem some on here are having is that they expect MD to be Duke or UNC. One NC doesn't make you a program at that level.

People had the expectation that the NC would get us up to that level.

I've always viewed us as more of a Mich St, Connecticut, Syracuse, or Arizona type program rather than the UNC, Duke, Kentucky, or UCLA type program. It'll take a lot more than 2 trips to the final 4 to get to being one of the elite programs in NCAA history, but it doesn't take much more than that to be one of the elite programs of a generation. We were right there, but we've clearly taken a step back since the NC, certainly some of that blame goes to Gary, but also there were very clearly some weird things going on with some of the classes that he couldn't have foreseen.

The big test will be over the next 2-3 seasons if we can get back to where we were in the few years before the NC.