Strong Dominican presence in O's Camp

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

I wonder if the steroid part of that has some thing to do with Dan not going after the younger guys playing in the Caribbean.  I know for a time  that their was an issue with the younger guys and high prevalence of steroid usage.  Also what is the percentage of those caught with steroids coming from other countries compared to the American born players.

The O's have had that approach since Angelos has been owner, probably longer.

Unless I'm shown evidence that Dan acted in a similar manner when in charge of the Expos and Red Sox I will assume his current actions are owner directed.

[wildcard]

24 minutes ago, FlipTheBird said:

None of these players has proven to be anything other than league average, and only one of them is that (Castillo). This is not some strategy, Dan's just rostering guys that he can afford and that he thinks might help. That's all.

And, in some cases, like Tavarez, you're cherry-picking. He finally had one above average minor league year in 2016. After five years of average to below-average ones. And the Sox still have a stocked minor league system. Simply put, he wasn't good enough to protect.

Out for the 29 teams that Tavarez could have been picked or stayed with the Red Sox if he was not picked, Dan picked him.  Dan valued the Dominican more than other GMs that had a chance at him.

[FlipTheBird]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Out for the 29 teams that Tavarez could have been picked or stayed with the Red Sox if he was not picked, Dan picked him.  Dan valued the Dominican more than other GMs that had a chance at him.

This is lunacy.

2017 Rule V picks taken before Tavarez

1. Twins: Miguel Diaz, RHP, Brewers (DOMINICAN REPUBLIC)
2. Reds: Luis Torrens, C, Yankees (VENEZUELA)
3. Padres: Allen Cordoba, SS, Cardinals (PANAMA)
4. Rays: Kevin Gadea, Mariners (NICARAGUA)
5. Braves: Armando Rivero, RHP, Cubs (CUBA)
6. D-backs: Tyler Jones, RHP, Yankees
7. Brewers: Caleb Smith, LHP, Yankees
8. Angels Justin Haley, RHP, Red Sox
9. White Sox: Dylan Covey, RHP, Athletics
10. Pirates: Tyler Webb, LHP, Yankees
11. Tigers: Daniel Stumpf, LHP, Royals

There was no shortage of diversity taken in front of Tavarez. Hell, the first overall pick was from the Dominican.

Have you considered that maybe Tavarez wasn't deemed good enough to draft/keep rostered by some of the teams that passed on him?

Have you considered that guys like Richard Rodriguez haven't caught on with other teams because scouts just don't think they're very good?

Have you considered that Wellington Castillo and Matt Wieters are basically the same catcher... and we non-tendered Matt the same way they non-tendered Castillo?

You're beyond reaching.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, FlipTheBird said:

This is lunacy.

2017 Rule V picks taken before Tavarez

1. Twins: Miguel Diaz, RHP, Brewers (DOMINICAN REPUBLIC)
2. Reds: Luis Torrens, C, Yankees (VENEZUELA)
3. Padres: Allen Cordoba, SS, Cardinals (PANAMA)
4. Rays: Kevin Gadea, Mariners (NICARAGUA)
5. Braves: Armando Rivero, RHP, Cubs (CUBA)
6. D-backs: Tyler Jones, RHP, Yankees
7. Brewers: Caleb Smith, LHP, Yankees
8. Angels Justin Haley, RHP, Red Sox
9. White Sox: Dylan Covey, RHP, Athletics
10. Pirates: Tyler Webb, LHP, Yankees
11. Tigers: Daniel Stumpf, LHP, Royals

There was no shortage of diversity taken in front of Tavarez. Hell, the first overall pick was from the Dominican.

Have you considered that maybe Tavarez wasn't deemed good enough to draft/keep rostered by some of the teams that passed on him?

Have you considered that guys like Richard Rodriguez haven't caught on with other teams because scouts just don't think they're very good?

Have you considered that Wellington Castillo and Matt Wieters are basically the same catcher... and we non-tendered Matt the same way they non-tendered Castillo?

You're beyond reaching.

We didn't non-tender Wieters the same way they non-tendered Castillo.    Castillo was arbitration-eligible, Wieters was a free agent.  

[wildcard]

6 minutes ago, FlipTheBird said:

This is lunacy.

2017 Rule V picks taken before Tavarez

1. Twins: Miguel Diaz, RHP, Brewers (DOMINICAN REPUBLIC)
2. Reds: Luis Torrens, C, Yankees (VENEZUELA)
3. Padres: Allen Cordoba, SS, Cardinals (PANAMA)
4. Rays: Kevin Gadea, Mariners (NICARAGUA)
5. Braves: Armando Rivero, RHP, Cubs (CUBA)
6. D-backs: Tyler Jones, RHP, Yankees
7. Brewers: Caleb Smith, LHP, Yankees
8. Angels Justin Haley, RHP, Red Sox
9. White Sox: Dylan Covey, RHP, Athletics
10. Pirates: Tyler Webb, LHP, Yankees
11. Tigers: Daniel Stumpf, LHP, Royals

There was no shortage of diversity taken in front of Tavarez. Hell, the first overall pick was from the Dominican.

Have you considered that maybe Tavarez wasn't deemed good enough to draft/keep rostered by some of the teams that passed on him?

Have you considered that guys like Richard Rodriguez haven't caught on with other teams because scouts just don't think they're very good?

Have you considered that Wellington Castillo and Matt Wieters are basically the same catcher... and we non-tendered Matt the same way they non-tendered Castillo?

You're beyond reaching.

I agree with most on this and you are proving my point.  Dan values Dominican players that other GMs don't. 

Castillo was non tendered.  Wieters was a FA.

[FlipTheBird]

Just now, wildcard said:

I agree with most on this and you are proving my point.  Dan values players that other GMs don't.

Castillo was non tendered.  Wieters was a FA.

Under your argument, every team values players that other GMs don't. "Oh, the Pirates took Tyler Webb. I guess only their GM valued him. And obviously the Tigers were the only team to value Daniel Stumpf."

Dan having guys in camp doesn't mean he values them more than other teams do. A lot of the time it's just who he could afford given his resources. Last year he couldn't afford Miguel Gonzalez, and the White Sox certainly proved that they valued him.

[FlipTheBird]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I agree with most on this and you are proving my point.  Dan values Dominican players that other GMs don't. 

Castillo was non tendered.  Wieters was a FA.

Further, you've absolutely no proof that Dan "values Dominican players that other GMs don't" other than that "the O's have a handful of Dominican players in camp."

I could flip the whole script and argue with just as much proof that Dan didn't bring in his Dominican players because he values them more than other GMs - he just doesn't have the money/assets to acquire BETTER Dominican players.

[Frobby]

Just now, wildcard said:

I agree with most on this and you are proving my point.  Dan values players that other GMs don't.

Two things are questionable about this:

1.   The logical leap that says these players are more highly valued by DD than some other GM because they are Dominican.   The fact that there are a number of Dominican players who Dan values more than some other GM does not necessarily imply that their Dominican background has anything to do with it.

2.   The O's have a lousy farm system, and therefore the fact that some other team doesn't protect a guy in the Rule 5 draft or otherwise can't keep a guy on their 40-man roster doesn't necessarily mean that Dan values the player more highly than the other GM, it just means he has more room on his roster for those guys because his own system lacks talent at the AA/AAA levels.  

[PaulFolk]

The whole premise of this thread makes me a little uncomfortable. You're arguing that other teams are discarding certain players based on their nationality, and the Orioles are acquiring more of those players because they have a preference for a certain nationality. There's no evidence to prove this, and furthermore, it doesn't make any sense in baseball terms.

It'd be one thing if the Orioles were scouting and signing players in the Dominican, which would indicate a specific talent evaluation strategy or scouting approach. But you're talking about players who have been in the majors for a while. At this point, their nation of origin has no relevance whatsoever.

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

The whole premise of this thread makes me a little uncomfortable. You're arguing that other teams are discarding certain players based on their nationality, and the Orioles are acquiring more of those players because they have a preference for a certain nationality. There's no evidence to prove this, and furthermore, it doesn't make any sense in baseball terms.

It'd be one thing if the Orioles were scouting and signing players in the Dominican, which would indicate a specific talent evaluation strategy or scouting approach. But you're talking about players who have been in the majors for a while. At this point, their nation of origin has no relevance whatsoever.

This is a discussion about whether Dan is finding Dominican players as an under valued commodity.   Its not political.  There is not reason to be uncomfortable.

As already mentioned by RZNJ, Dan does not like sign 16 year Latin players to bonuses.  He likes to seeing them develop some and then picking them up.   O's scouts still identify players are  talented.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

This is a discussion about whether Dan is finding Dominican players as an under valued commodity.   Its not political.  There is not reason to be uncomfortable.

As already mentioned by RZNJ, Dan does not like sign 16 year Latin players to bonuses.  He likes to seeing them develop some and then picking them up.   O's scouts still identify players are  talented.

And do we know that is actually the case?  Did he avoid them in Montreal and Boston?

Or is this an ownership driven directive?

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And do we know that is actually the case?  Did he avoid them in Montreal and Boston?

Or is this an ownership driven directive?

My opinion see Dan is just try to find talent that is undervalued and over the last two years he see Dominicans as fitting that model.

[wildcard]

40 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Two things are questionable about this:

1.   The logical leap that says these players are more highly valued by DD than some other GM because they are Dominican.   The fact that there are a number of Dominican players who Dan values more than some other GM does not necessarily imply that their Dominican background has anything to do with it.

2.   The O's have a lousy farm system, and therefore the fact that some other team doesn't protect a guy in the Rule 5 draft or otherwise can't keep a guy on their 40-man roster doesn't necessarily mean that Dan values the player more highly than the other GM, it just means he has more room on his roster for those guys because his own system lacks talent at the AA/AAA levels.  

In 2011 before Dan took over the O's had 4 Dominican players in ST.  This year they have 10.   9 out of the 10 have been acquired in the last two years.   You say its a coincidence.    OK...............

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

My opinion see Dan is just try to find talent that is undervalued and over the last two years he see Dominicans as fitting that model.

I'm of a mind that it is simply a coincidence.

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm of a mind that it is simply a coincidence.

OK