TT: The only question left for Angelos

[Tony-OH]

http://www.orioleshangout.com/2017/07/17/question-left-angelos/

[TonySoprano]

Recently, I asked Weams who would want to take Dan's place?  He correctly noted that there are 30 assistants in baseball who would like a promotion.  Logically, that makes sense, but I don't remember a swarm of applications from that small cadre of professionals when we had the last opening and went with a man who had been out of the game for nine years.  Have things changed that much to get the phone ringing off the hook in the law offices of Peter G. Angelos?  I agree with Tony's take that Brady is a leading candidate, at least, I assume, from Angelos' perspective.  A lot of frustrated people want to kick Dan to the curb, but I'm open to hearing specific names who you'd like to see take his place.  "Anyone but Dan" is not an answer.

[99ct]

27 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Recently, I asked Weams who would want to take Dan's place?  He correctly noted that there are 30 assistants in baseball who would like a promotion.  Logically, that makes sense, but I don't remember a swarm of applications from that small cadre of professionals when we had the last opening and went with a man who had been out of the game for nine years.  Have things changed that much to get the phone ringing off the hook in the law offices of Peter G. Angelos?  I agree with Tony's take that Brady is a leading candidate, at least, I assume, from Angelos' perspective.  A lot of frustrated people want to kick Dan to the curb, but I'm open to hearing specific names who you'd like to see take his place.  "Anyone but Dan" is not an answer.

Any idea what it would take to land Jed Hoyer, and whether he'd be a good fit for our organization? He recently signed through 2021 with the Cubs, but he'll always be second fiddle to Theo. We could make him president of baseball operations or something. 

[theobird]

I am not frustrated by Dan, I just have never been a supporter of his. I do not think he has done a good job here, and I still believe he inherited a great situation left for him by Andy MacPhail. But that's old news. I would love to see a whole and entire rebuild at this point, and I do not want Dan Duquette leading it. Brady Anderson would be my preference, but I would like for Brady to have the freedom necessary to make the moves he see's fit to make. And that includes the Field Manager. If I had my way, Dan Duquette would be relieved of duties this afternoon and BA given the reigns to rebuild. Nobody on present roster would be immune to trade, except where contract prohibits it. I would like to see the O's get very young, very quickly and go through the growing pains that would almost certainly follow. But to me, that's the only path to "fixing" this broken organization.

[Tony-OH]

13 minutes ago, theobird said:

I am not frustrated by Dan, I just have never been a supporter of his. I do not think he has done a good job here, and I still believe he inherited a great situation left for him by Andy MacPhail. But that's old news. I would love to see a whole and entire rebuild at this point, and I do not want Dan Duquette leading it. Brady Anderson would be my preference, but I would like for Brady to have the freedom necessary to make the moves he see's fit to make. And that includes the Field Manager. If I had my way, Dan Duquette would be relieved of duties this afternoon and BA given the reigns to rebuild. Nobody on present roster would be immune to trade, except where contract prohibits it. I would like to see the O's get very young, very quickly and go through the growing pains that would almost certainly follow. But to me, that's the only path to "fixing" this broken organization.

If they did want Brady to take over, they should do it now honestly. If they don't know who they want, then they need to start the search quietly now and make the change as soon as the season is over.

[Spy Fox]

Even if they've decided to sell, I think there's another question they probably haven't settled on yet-- Do you sell with the intent of entering a full-scale rebuild, with no thought of contending in 2018? Or do you do a more moderate sell-off with the hopes of somehow getting enough of a SP rebound to contend next year? I think most people here would prefer the former, but with the indication that Jones and Machado probably won't be on the trading block, I'm guessing they will land closer to the latter.

[wildcard]

Oh My!!!  Calling for the firing of Buck!   What planet do you live on?

I am betting that Buck stays as long as he wants whether that is under Peter or John.  He turned this franchise around.  He has won more games over the last 5 years than any other AL manager.   And in many cases with less talent.  So lets get this out of the way.  Buck Stays.   Even if the GM changes.  Buck Stays.

So on Dan, its easy to focus on the negatives.  Bad trades.  Bad signing.  But who has done better?   Name him?  Then tell if he is available.   Probably not.   And the amazing thing is that Dan has been successful  working for Peter.  No easy task.  Didn't you get tired on watching other O's GM fail.    Dan has succeeded.   

Do you really blame Dan for Gausman regression?   Do you blame him for Tillman's injury?  I don't.   Bundy is progressing year over year.   Sure Dan has to take the blame for Miley and Jimenez.  But he gets the credit for Chen and Gonzalez.   

Brady hasn't managed anything and he should not be the  next in line for the O's GM spot.   No rookie GMs.  Peter is too hard to work for to do that.

And the idea that Peter is going fire Dan, pay for him 2018 and hire another GM is foriegn territory.  

What is apparently happening now is what should happen.   Britton is on the block.   Hopefully to bring back some starting talent.  Brach and O'Day are also mentioned.   Manny is not and that is because if the O's want to take a run at signing him this off season, Buck has to be signed first.  And Buck is a little busy at the moment.  Smith, Kim Castillo can all be FA in October and if the O's can get anything for them they should.  That appears to be the plan and that is what should be the plan for now.

Kind of wild calling for Buck dismissal considering what he has done for the O's and what he can still do.

 

 

 

 

[Tony-OH]

12 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Oh My!!!  Calling for the firing of Buck!   What planet do you live on?

I am betting that Buck stays as long as he wants whether that is under Peter or John.  He turned this franchise around.  He has won more games over the last 5 years than any other AL manager.   And in many cases with less talent.  So lets get this out of the way.  Buck Stays.   Even if the GM changes.  Buck Stays.

So on Dan, its easy to focus on the negatives.  Bad trades.  Bad signing.  But who has done better?   Name him?  Then tell if he is available.   Probably not.   And the amazing thing is that Dan has been successful  working for Peter.  No easy task.  Didn't you get tired on watching other O's GM fail.    Dan has succeeded.   

Do you really blame Dan for Gausman regression?   Do you blame him for Tillman's injury?  I don't.   Bundy is progressing year over year.   Sure Dan has to take the blame for Miley and Jimenez.  But he gets the credit for Chen and Gonzalez.   

Brady hasn't managed anything and he should not be the  next in line for the O's GM spot.   No rookie GMs.  Peter is too hard to work for to do that.

And the idea that Peter is going fire Dan, pay for him 2018 and hire another GM is foriegn territory.  

What is apparently happening now is what should happen.   Britton is on the block.   Hopefully to bring back some starting talent.  Brach and O'Day are also mentioned.   Manny is not and that is because if the O's want to take a run at signing him this off season, Buck has to be signed first.  And Buck is a little busy at the moment.  Smith, Kim Castillo can all be FA in October and if the O's can get anything for them they should.  That appears to be the plan and that is what should be the plan for now.

Kind of wild calling for Buck dismissal considering what he has done for the O's and what he can still do.

 

 

 

 

Um, where do you see me calling for the firing of Buck? I said if  a new guy comes in, does he get to bring in his own manager? Also, there is a question on whether Buck is part of the failed player assessments. 

Personally, I like a lot of things Buck has done and brought here to Baltimore, but everything has a shelf life and if a new GM wanted to bring in his guy, I'm ok with that.

Additionally, I didn't call for Brady to be the next GM. I literally said, "So again, the question is, if it’s not Duquette, then who? Start the Brady Anderson rumors on 3….2….1…."

BTW, it's well known Brady has a good relationship with Peter and that he works directly for him. He doesn't work for Dan or Buck. It would seem natural IF Angelos wanted to make a change that he might go with Brady. I honestly don't know if that's a good thing or not. The good is, he might have enough influence to make real change in how the organization operates, especially in the international markets. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but he probably has a better chance than a new guy.

 

[Il BuonO]

37 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Oh My!!!  Calling for the firing of Buck!   What planet do you live on?

I am betting that Buck stays as long as he wants whether that is under Peter or John.  He turned this franchise around.  He has won more games over the last 5 years than any other AL manager.   And in many cases with less talent.  So lets get this out of the way.  Buck Stays.   Even if the GM changes.  Buck Stays.

Kind of wild calling for Buck dismissal considering what he has done for the O's and what he can still do.

I often hear this refrain as the reason the Orioles have been the best team during that time frame. The Orioles haven't won the big games under Buck.

Buck has done great job of changing the culture of the Orioles clubhouse. He put vets on notice when he arrived that there are guys at AAA waiting for the opportunity to take your job, you better take it seriously. But after that, it's been loyalty to veterans, deserved or not. 

I also thought Buck got a raw deal with the Yankees and D-backs, but no one can make that case in his time with the Orioles. By the time his current contract is up he will have been in Baltimore for eight years.

Buck had had plenty of time, now it's time to move on.

 

[Bahama O's Fan]

A very good question. I agree; if they trust Dan and Buck to rebuild/retool, then extend them now. If not, then find his or their replacements. I wonder as Angelos gets older, if his son is just as meddling. Would that help land a new GM?

[wildcard]

"Both Buck and Dan have helped bring winning baseball back to Baltimore, but with a payroll that has swelled to around $160,000,000, a last place team, and a farm system ranked near the bottom by every national publication, it’s clear their run should be coming to an end."

Sounded like you were saying that both Buck and Dan's time with the O's should be coming to an end.  if that is not what you meant, what did you mean?

[SteveA]

7 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

A very good question. I agree; if they trust Dan and Buck to rebuild/retool, then extend them now. If not, then find his or their replacements. I wonder as Angelos gets older, if his son is just as meddling. Would that help land a new GM?

Honestly I don't even know how "meddling" Peter is anymore.   We hear so much talk on here about what he allows and what he doesn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's just talk.   He may have had a hand in the Davis deal, but I doubt he had anything to do with Trumbo, Ubaldo, etc.   Other than approving a payroll budget.   The no-international-signing may have come from him, but maybe it doesn't.   Maybe it's just indirect, in that he doesn't want to pay a lot of people to scout those areas.   I've heard we have the fewest scouts on payroll of any team, dont' know if that's true.

Reading these threads there's just so much talk that makes people think PGA is pulling strings or intimately involved in the running of the team, and I just tend to doubt it.   I'll bet his kids have far more impact on day to day decisions than he does at this point.

[sportsfan8703]

Wouldn't DD be the perfect GM if we did a total rebuild?  Imagine the scrap heap team he could put together for next season.  

[Sessh]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Oh My!!!  Calling for the firing of Buck!   What planet do you live on?

I am betting that Buck stays as long as he wants whether that is under Peter or John.  He turned this franchise around.  He has won more games over the last 5 years than any other AL manager.   And in many cases with less talent.  So lets get this out of the way.  Buck Stays.   Even if the GM changes.  Buck Stays.

No, Buck doesn't stay. Buck has played a significant role in destroying this farm system and all those bad personnel decisions. I know you Buck worshippers just love to overlook that and not acknowledge it, but it's the truth. It's called planet reality. If Buck has "turned this franchise around", then so has DD. He did have a hand in all of this, no denying that, but he has had an equal hand in destroying it to the state it's in right now and he pulled the rug out from under his own team's feet last year against Toronto which has undoubtedly affected this team as well. Buck doesn't stay, Buck goes. He's had chances and blew them all. He has helped to shape this organization into what it is right now this season; back to square one. Time to move on and that's what he'll do.

He's won more games blah blah blah.. no championships, no significant postseason success, saw his team get embarrassed out of the ALCS while being taunted on the way out and single-handedly blew the wild card game last season because he thought Ubaldo Jimenez earned the right to decide the Orioles' season instead of Zach Britton which was a mistake nearly identical to the one he made over 20 years ago that also ended his team's season. Yeah, let's keep THAT guy for the regular season wins which ultimately mean nothing because there isn't another manager in the WORLD that is capable of being good at his job. None, not one and certainly none that can pull it together when the games really matter in October.

[wildcard]

17 minutes ago, Sessh said:

No, Buck doesn't stay. Buck has played a significant role in destroying this farm system and all those bad personnel decisions. I know you Buck worshippers just love to overlook that and not acknowledge it, but it's the truth. It's called planet reality. If Buck has "turned this franchise around", then so has DD. He did have a hand in all of this, no denying that, but he has had an equal hand in destroying it to the state it's in right now and he pulled the rug out from under his own team's feet last year against Toronto which has undoubtedly affected this team as well. Buck doesn't stay, Buck goes. He's had chances and blew them all. He has helped to shape this organization into what it is right now this season; back to square one. Time to move on and that's what he'll do.

He's won more games blah blah blah.. no championships, no significant postseason success, saw his team get embarrassed out of the ALCS while being taunted on the way out and single-handedly blew the wild card game last season because he thought Ubaldo Jimenez earned the right to decide the Orioles' season instead of Zach Britton which was a mistake nearly identical to the one he made over 20 years ago that also ended his team's season. Yeah, let's keep THAT guy for the regular season wins which ultimately mean nothing because there isn't another manager in the WORLD that is capable of being good at his job. None, not one and certainly none that can pull it together when the games really matter in October.

You are spoiled.  Absolutely 100% spoiled.  5 years of winning has spoiled you. You think its easy to build a winning team.  Well, think again.  Its not.

Since 1983 the O's have been in the playoff 5 times.  Two in 1996-1997 and three of the last 5 year.   The other 27 years they did not make the playoffs  27 is a big number.  You have forgotten or at least it seems you have forgotten what it i like to lose year after year after year.

Buck and Dan changed all that.

All this crying about he farm system is so much bunk.   The O's  have produced guys from their farm system over the years.   They traded some and the kept some.   its does matter if their farm system wins.  It matters what the Orioles major league team does.   But the farm system is probably in better shape right now then it has been in years.   

Next year Hays and Mullins are probably with the O's at some point.  Maybe Scott.   If Sisco can pick up his defense he may make the majors at some point or Wynn.   Long looks good.   There are more in the lower minors that will come in years after that.   The O's will sell off a few guys at the deadline and this off season to add more minor leaguer.  But don't expect the O's to keep them all because the O's plan is probably to reload not to rebuild slowly.