TT: Is Bridwell's success with the Angels a strike against the Orioles?

[Cumberbundy]

36 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

Here is the thing though, guys out perform their peripherals, and if you are lucky enough to get that performance out of them, and minimize the regression, you end up leading the wildcard instead of hoping Jeremy Hellickson can eat some innings for you while sputter to the finish.

Championships are won on the backs of players outperforming their peripherals.

Give this fan a contract. 

[Cumberbundy]

11 hours ago, hoosiers said:

You realize one of the first roster casualties when DD took over was Pat Neshek - future all star and still pitching effectively today. 

I hadn't realized it. ☹️

[Cumberbundy]

On July 29, 2017 at 4:07 AM, Malike said:

People don't like facts. They like to lament, just because. Don't forget the 2.0 HR/9. But hey, he's got a 4-1 record with a nice ERA! He must be the real deal.

Well, aside from your post ignoring facts, it's spot on. No one has suggested he's a future all star, no one has denied any luck; what has been denied is by folks like yourself who act as if he'd not be celebrated on the OH as a key piece of the future if he was doing the same for us. Sure some would point to reasons for caution but the enthusiasm for him, on this board, would be surpassed by no player in our organization. 

It was an undeniably atrocious move that cost us Miranda, gaining Miley, getting hellickson, wasting a lot of money, and possibly playoff spot. Moves don't get much worse. 

Since the AS break, Bridwell has allowed 13% hard contact. Maybe he will improve, it's possible, 25 year olds have done it a time or two in the past. 

You dont like facts. So, your first statement is ultimately correct, even if misguided. 

 

[eddie83]

11 hours ago, hoosiers said:

You realize one of the first roster casualties when DD took over was Pat Neshek - future all star and still pitching effectively today.  DD inherited a ****-ton of talent on the 40 man roster and in the minors

I don't want everyone to go.  DD has put together IMO one of the better combinations of scouting directors and player development teams that this organization has had in a long time.

So the 2012 pen needed Neshek? I mean come on. 

JJ

O'Day

Strop

Patton

Ayala 

Lindstrom

 Neshek was coming off of a blah 2011 season. He had a 2.66 ERA at AAA with a whip over 1. He has been on 4 teams since that season. 

[eddie83]

8 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

Well, aside from your post ignoring facts, it's spot on. No one has suggested he's a future all star, no one has denied any luck; what has been denied is by folks like yourself who act as if he'd not be celebrated on the OH as a key piece of the future if he was doing the same for us. Sure some would point to reasons for caution but the enthusiasm for him, on this board, would be surpassed by no player in our organization. 

It was an undeniably atrocious move that cost us Miranda, gaining Miley, getting hellickson, wasting a lot of money, and possibly playoff spot. Moves don't get much worse. 

Since the AS break, Bridwell has allowed 13% hard contact. Maybe he will improve, it's possible, 25 year olds have done it a time or two in the past. 

You dong like facts. So, your first statement is ultimately correct, even if misguided. 

 

I think the biggest issue with DD isn't who he lost it is who he has brought in. It has got to a point where it just gets to be piling on day after day. I mean it is one thing to criticize them over Bridwell but can we see if it lasts? Miranda in our division is exactly what? I saw his highlights last night, a Bruce HR that barely got over the wall that would have been 25 rows deep at Camden. Now, would I rather have Miranda over Miley, of course but isn't like we lost Kershaw. 

Dan needs to do a better job of building a rotation. He deserves criticism, his latest moves have been awful. I just don't think who we lost is the big issue. It is who he has added. 

[thezeroes]

12 hours ago, hoosiers said:

You realize one of the first roster casualties when DD took over was Pat Neshek

So in your opinion, selling Pat Neshek to the A's was the downfall of the Organization since his roster spot was used to bring up Manny Machado.

[Cumberbundy]

20 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

I think the biggest issue with DD isn't who he lost it is who he has brought in. It has got to a point where it just gets to be piling on day after day. I mean it is one thing to criticize them over Bridwell but can we see if it lasts? Miranda in our division is exactly what? I saw his highlights last night, a Bruce HR that barely got over the wall that would have been 25 rows deep at Camden. Now, would I rather have Miranda over Miley, of course but isn't like we lost Kershaw. 

Dan needs to do a better job of building a rotation. He deserves criticism, his latest moves have been awful. I just don't think who we lost is the big issue. It is who he has added. 

The only things left to be determined is how bad the deals were. It's not just who he brought in, but how much he spent to bring them. Wasting the owners money is one thing, but our system has been awful, seeing guys contribute at the mlb level for other teams is frustrating. Miranda may stink, but he's got the stuff to be a good option out of the pen if not a starter. Dan brings in lesser, older, more expensive players. That's what made the Yankees awful during their worst years. We don't spend like them but when we spend we do it just as poorly. The draft picks bother me, we actually draft pretty well. 

If we waited to see the results of everything there would be no message board. I don't see why it bothers anyone if it's pointed out that some think Dan stinks. Apathy isn't going to help. I didn't create the thread and I root for Bridwell to get lit up, which I shouldn't do, but if he got crushed I'd be just as pleased as the Dan fans.

Being lit up so often there isn't much to discuss, then we got rained out on the farm and Bridwell shut down Toronto...tough evening as someone who loves to see O's fans, like yourself, in celebration mode. I still enjoy replays of old playoff games in Baltimore. 

I don't think who we've lost is a big deal (outside of the picks) either. It's just the fact that we got guys who are abysmal, if I'm going to watch a guy get lit up I'd much rather watch a 23 year old we drafted and pay 500,000 than Wade or Ubaldo.  

The things that are exciting are wins and youth. Our 2017 roster has been getting smashed while youth we had is bringing other fans joy and I'm envious. I don't want to see Angels fans talking up Bridwell, he's ours! We drafted him. I know a bunch of Pitt fans all fired up about Brault, I can't take the Caps/Pitt & now hearing about Brault. ?

Im a fan of the skins, O's, Terps, Vols & Wizards. I know too much pain. I'm just waiting to go numb. I love the birds, I was really hoping we'd get some talent in, seeing us add Hellickson just removes much hope that the guy in charge is still functioning at a high level. When the trade deadline passes, if we don't do anything else, I'll be less of a pain. I enjoy nights on the farm, in the minor league forum it's all sunshine, here...

 

Ill stop beating the dead horse, Eddie! For you. Here's to a run to the playoffs. 

?

[oriolediehard]

Yes.... All I see is he allows less than 3 runs a game and is 5-1,  I don't care if his FIP is 10, I know it is 5 but all I know is he allowed less than 3 runs and that wins games FIP don't.

[oriolediehard]

There is definitely something wrong with the O's coaching staff all the way down to the low minors.  The O's are not seeing the flaws in a young pitcher that seemingly other teams do.  There about 4 - 5 pitchers the O's traded or gave away that are doing decent to very good.  Why can't the O's see what other coaches see.  Big problem the O's need to fix.  Apparently they are drafting good pitchers but they can't coach them.

[eddie83]

45 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

The only things left to be determined is how bad the deals were. It's not just who he brought in, but how much he spent to bring them. Wasting the owners money is one thing, but our system has been awful, seeing guys contribute at the mlb level for other teams is frustrating. Miranda may stink, but he's got the stuff to be a good option out of the pen if not a starter. Dan brings in lesser, older, more expensive players. That's what made the Yankees awful during their worst years. We don't spend like them but when we spend we do it just as poorly. The draft picks bother me, we actually draft pretty well. 

If we waited to see the results of everything there would be no message board. I don't see why it bothers anyone if it's pointed out that some think Dan stinks. Apathy isn't going to help. I didn't create the thread and I root for Bridwell to get lit up, which I shouldn't do, but if he got crushed I'd be just as pleased as the Dan fans.

Being lit up so often there isn't much to discuss, then we got rained out on the farm and Bridwell shut down Toronto...tough evening as someone who loves to see O's fans, like yourself, in celebration mode. I still enjoy replays of old playoff games in Baltimore. 

I don't think who we've lost is a big deal (outside of the picks) either. It's just the fact that we got guys who are abysmal, if I'm going to watch a guy get lit up I'd much rather watch a 23 year old we drafted and pay 500,000 than Wade or Ubaldo.  

The things that are exciting are wins and youth. Our 2017 roster has been getting smashed while youth we had is bringing other fans joy and I'm envious. I don't want to see Angels fans talking up Bridwell, he's ours! We drafted him. I know a bunch of Pitt fans all fired up about Brault, I can't take the Caps/Pitt & now hearing about Brault. ?

Im a fan of the skins, O's, Terps, Vols & Wizards. I know too much pain. I'm just waiting to go numb. I love the birds, I was really hoping we'd get some talent in, seeing us add Hellickson just removes much hope that the guy in charge is still functioning at a high level. When the trade deadline passes, if we don't do anything else, I'll be less of a pain. I enjoy nights on the farm, in the minor league forum it's all sunshine, here...

 

Ill stop beating the dead horse, Eddie! For you. Here's to a run to the playoffs. 

?

We aren't going to any playoffs.  

All I am trying to say is I think Dan's failure is more about who he brought in, not who he lost. 

Erod and Arrieta are different stories. The whole Erod thing comes back to what you are willing to deal. Arrieta was a headcase here. Those two pitchers have the stuff and talent to win. 

In general you either have to outpitch your peripherals like a Miguel Gonzalez to win the AL East unless of course you are a top notch talent. 

I think it is much worse that Dan wasted number 1 picks on Ubaldo and Gallardo then losing some of the other pieces. 

Another odd thing is they have been good at developing bullpen pieces. Obviously that is a different skill set, but it is still pitching. 

I guess in general it just feels like Dan has become daily target practice. I think any GM who works for PA when we are in a winning cycle is going to have a very difficult time building a system at the same time we are winning. This owner is anal about physicals. Most pitchers have some wear and tear. 

[thezeroes]

55 minutes ago, oriolediehard said:

There is definitely something wrong with the O's coaching staff all the way down to the low minors.  The O's are not seeing the flaws in a young pitcher that seemingly other teams do.  There about 4 - 5 pitchers the O's traded or gave away that are doing decent to very good.  Why can't the O's see what other coaches see.  Big problem the O's need to fix.  Apparently they are drafting good pitchers but they can't coach them.

Sometimes when a pitcher (Arrieta) get a change of scenery, they finally lose the brain cramp that they were fed from LL on about how good they are and they finally realize that talent without a proper mechanical element will only get them so far. They decide that IF they want to stay in this game the need to listen to those that just probably know a wee bit more than they do.  By finally getting traded/sold/released this element in their thinking gets brought to the forefront.  Gausman is now the poster child for finally either getting it together or being employed elsewhere.

If you change coaches on a continuous/yearly basis, as the Orioles seem to be doing, the results are evident with what the Orioles have this year.  When it is reported that outside influences (Brady Anderson) that have complete autonomy from responsibility of the end result have had influences on players in question the results/failures are blamed on the wrong people.  The problem may not be diagnoses of a pitching issue but the ability of said players to use the prescription given to fix it.

[Sessh]

Arrieta, Bridwell, Miranda, Davies, Hader, Strop, E-Rod and whoever else I'm forgetting. The Orioles may be in contention right now if they had a clue about assessing and developing pitching. Our rotation would surely be much better than it is right now. Miranda has limitations despite the low WHIP/BAA numbers, but he's still better than most of the guys we're trotting out there now including the guy he was traded for. 

Davies has 14.2 IP without allowing an earned run including a 7.2 inning performance where he shut out the Nats lineup and held them to three hits in his last start on Tuesday. Matter of fact, four of his last six were QS and three of them were shutout performances of no less than seven innings. He has done nothing but improve since his rough start. Hader is even pitching for the Brewers now and early on, he has a 1.06 (1.06/.127) line. Now sure, this may not hold up, but considering all the other examples, it certainly shouldn't be a surprise if it does.

Why is it that all these pitchers, who start out with Baltimore, need a "fresh start" somewhere else in order to flourish into whatever they are capable of being which has, so far, turned out to be MUCH better than they were assessed to be while here? This is an internal problem and a problem with both talent assessment and development of which "God" is also part of the problem. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Hyun-Soo Kim become a solid, every day major leaguer wherever he ends up next season. Could be the Rays, never know. I'd love to see that, though.

For whatever reason, pitchers get ruined here and need to be reborn somewhere else. There's too many examples of this happening in recent history to just brush off as some coincidence. It's a problem. A rotation of Arrieta, Rodriguez, Bridwell, Davies and Miranda/Bundy/Gausman with the other two being in the bullpen (Bundy is probably destined to be there anyway) would be far better than this especially with Strop and Hader out there as well. Unfortunately, most of them needed to get out of Baltimore in order to flourish. We'd very likely be much, much better than we are right now. As it stands, we have to rely on guys like Hellickson instead. It's pathetic. If only DD had the autonomy he deserves. I bet wherever he goes next, he builds a championship team there, too. He needs a "fresh start" as well.

 

[hoosiers]

3 hours ago, thezeroes said:

So in your opinion, selling Pat Neshek to the A's was the downfall of the Organization since his roster spot was used to bring up Manny Machado.

How do people sit behind a computer and post this drivel?  "downfall of the organization" is my opinion of getting rid of Neshek?  How do you interpret that from my post?

I have never criticized DD for shedding Neshek.  I am just saying that DD inherited Neshek from the prior GM and gave up on a very good baseball player for nothing.

[weams]

11 minutes ago, hoosiers said:

How do people sit behind a computer and post this drivel?  "downfall of the organization" is my opinion of getting rid of Neshek?  How do you interpret that from my post?

I have never criticized DD for shedding Neshek.  I am just saying that DD inherited Neshek from the prior GM and gave up on a very good baseball player for nothing.

He was a reclamation project doing well and not going to be promoted. His wife was pregnant with a child that eventually died. Dan gave Pat a chance at the MLB and has been a free agent twice since then. In retrospect, the Orioles would have been better off trading O'Day and signing Pat to a long term deal. If only we had all known. Kinda like the Rangers when they DFA'd O'Day. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

He was a reclamation project doing well and not going to be promoted. His wife was pregnant with a child that eventually died. Dan gave Pat a chance at the MLB and has been a free agent twice since then. In retrospect, the Orioles would have been better off trading O'Day and signing Pat to a long term deal. If only we had all known. Kinda like the Rangers when they DFA'd O'Day. 

They were playing the long game.  It was all a trap so the O's would wind up stuck with O'Day in a long term deal during his inevitable decline.

Those Rangers are tricky.