TT: Is Bridwell's success with the Angels a strike against the Orioles?

[hoosiers]

I am saying the organization didn't know the true value of what it was giving up.  And that fans don't respect the "cost" of what was given up.  Folks simply wanted Andrew Miller and the cost side of the equation didn't matter because Miller "moved the needle".  You know, the middle reliever Miller - not one of our top five position players, not the closer, not one of the top three starters - a guy who could contribute as perhaps the tenth most important piece of a playoff team. 

Regarding Bridwell, you may want to see more than 45 IP, but I believe there is a point being missed.  Our FO valued him as a AAA bullpen arm this season and another saw him as a bona fide major league starting pitcher.  Our front office had reports on Bridwell, coached and made recommendations to Bridwell for over five years and another organization gets him for cash and within a month or two, Bridwell is pitching better in the major leagues for a new organization than he ever did in the minors for the Os (same thing that happened with Jake, same thing that happened with EdRod).  Whether Bridwell regresses or not, that's damning.

[crawjo]

Miller was definitely worth the risk. We had a team in 2014 that was capable of winning a championship, and Miller gave us a hugely valuable relief pitcher for the postseason. The Cubs gave up more (Torres) for virtually the same thing in Aroldis Chapman last year.

As far as Bridwell is concerned, his peripherals don't look promising. 46 innings is nothing. Let's see how he's doing after a couple more months and then engage in recriminations where necessary. 

[weams]

8 hours ago, crawjo said:

Miller was definitely worth the risk. We had a team in 2014 that was capable of winning a championship, and Miller gave us a hugely valuable relief pitcher for the postseason. The Cubs gave up more (Torres) for virtually the same thing in Aroldis Chapman last year.

As far as Bridwell is concerned, his peripherals don't look promising. 46 innings is nothing. Let's see how he's doing after a couple more months and then engage in recriminations where necessary. 

 

You've got to pay to see the monkey. 

[Tony-OH]

10 hours ago, hoosiers said:

I am saying the organization didn't know the true value of what it was giving up.  And that fans don't respect the "cost" of what was given up.  Folks simply wanted Andrew Miller and the cost side of the equation didn't matter because Miller "moved the needle".  You know, the middle reliever Miller - not one of our top five position players, not the closer, not one of the top three starters - a guy who could contribute as perhaps the tenth most important piece of a playoff team. 

 

I think this is where your argument fails. Miller was not a middle reliever, but rather a High leverage reliever you could bring in anywhere between the 6th and 8th inning to snuff out a rally or tough part of the lineup. He made the Orioles a legitimate World Series contender and if not for a white hot Royals team i think they would have won it all with him that year. As for E-Rod, his stuff wasn't that great in Bowie and his breaking ball had backed up on him. There was talent there of course, and I liked the fastball changeup combo, but he's the kind of guy you have to trade to pick up a a guy like Miller.

As for Rodriguez, he's struggled to stay healthy over a full season so far and although he clearly would have been better than Ubaldo/Gallardo/Miley we would have been looking at a lot of starts for guys like Tyler Wilson, Mike Wright and Jayson Aquino filling in for him while he's been hurt.

Regardless, i didn't have a problem with the trade then nor do i now. Now if you wanna jump on his Davies trade I'm 110% behind you.

[Tony-OH]

10 hours ago, crawjo said:

Miller was definitely worth the risk. We had a team in 2014 that was capable of winning a championship, and Miller gave us a hugely valuable relief pitcher for the postseason. The Cubs gave up more (Torres) for virtually the same thing in Aroldis Chapman last year.

As far as Bridwell is concerned, his peripherals don't look promising. 46 innings is nothing. Let's see how he's doing after a couple more months and then engage in recriminations where necessary. 

But do we have to? The Orioles basically gave him away. Even if Bridwell flames out, he's still has provided 46 solid innings of starting pitching. That might be what Ubaldo and Miley have pitched combined. When the Orioles sold Bridwell, they certainly considered themselves a contender. You don't give away potential starting pitching prospects for nothing unless you didn't think he could help your team. It's clear he could have, but then again, apparently the Angels showed him what he was doing wrong and made some corrections so maybe he would not have been successful here anyways.

That's a sad sentence to have to write.

[Cumberbundy]

Made short work of the Jays in Toronto. That makes dominant starts in Tor, Ny & Boston. If Bridwell started for Wade or Baldy we may be leading for the WC. Who'd uh thunk it. The enthusiasm on this board would be out of control if we had Bridwell performing like this. We'd have 100 threads about building around it and he'd be a deadline "untouchable". The combination of Tillman & this start just makes me want to turn off the lights, fire up some scented candles, and jam out to Sarah mclachlan while I try to find myself and think of inventions that will keep me from losing my keys. 

[Cumberbundy]

On July 25, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Tony-OH said:

But do we have to? The Orioles basically gave him away. Even if Bridwell flames out, he's still has provided 46 solid innings of starting pitching. That might be what Ubaldo and Miley have pitched combined. When the Orioles sold Bridwell, they certainly considered themselves a contender. You don't give away potential starting pitching prospects for nothing unless you didn't think he could help your team. It's clear he could have, but then again, apparently the Angels showed him what he was doing wrong and made some corrections so maybe he would not have been successful here anyways.

That's a sad sentence to have to write.

I can't take days like this with rainouts on the farm. I need my Hays therapy, Tony. ☹️

[Camden_yardbird]

On 7/21/2017 at 8:55 PM, eddie83 said:

I just can't disagree more with this. We are suppose to assume that Miranda who would have been a starter in the AL East would have been as effective? Baseball-Reference says that this year Safeco has a pitching rating of 100 and hitting 100. Meanwhile Camden is at 88 and 89 this year. 

I would like to meet the person who thinks that our park is a pitchers park? In April and May if it is cold it plays bigger, not now. Those numbers are comical. I saw a HR tonight that went about 366 feet when the ball is flying. 

Davies has an ERA of 4.76 and no DH is going to be an effective starter in the AL East? Triggs had 65 innings this year. So far Bridwell has 39 innings. 

I don't subscribe to the idea that is a pitcher has an ERA+ of whatever the number is it is just some simple math that you can convert to another team. 

I don't think Miley and Ubaldo would be quality starters on any team, not saying that. 

 

Can we stop using this as an excuse.  "These guys wouldn't perform in the AL east."  There is not that big a difference in competition.  We don't know how they would have performed, we know how they have performed.  And even if you are going to accept that they would have failed hard in the AL East, they have had varying levels of success where there are, and the trades or choices to abandon these players were just bad.  More expensive, or underperfoming players have come to the orioles in exchange for cheaper players who have had success.

[thezeroes]

This is just my take:

If the posters that are belittling the trades of any/all the pitchers that have done well for other ball-clubs, would you also list the pitchers that were released since Dan Duquette took over the GM role and what they are doing now.  Over a five year span there have been at a Minimum Twenty pitchers a year that have folded out of the Minors/Majors on the Orioles alone.  They, for the most part , are playing in some amateur leagues or have went forward with their lives.  No one mentions those moves.  We focus on what we want to fit a certain agenda driven drivel.  To be honest the entire coaching staffs and scouting from the lowest levels to the Majors would all need to be released after the season and a new GM brought in to rebuild from the bottom up.  This way those hired may very well be all on the same page with one agenda and one direction.  Duquette, Showalter, their staffs, friends, consultants along with Brady Anderson are either part of the problem or are entirely the problem if one is to believe what gets posted on these agenda driven threads.

[hoosiers]

36 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

This is just my take:

If the posters that are belittling the trades of any/all the pitchers that have done well for other ball-clubs, would you also list the pitchers that were released since Dan Duquette took over the GM role and what they are doing now.  Over a five year span there have been at a Minimum Twenty pitchers a year that have folded out of the Minors/Majors on the Orioles alone.  They, for the most part , are playing in some amateur leagues or have went forward with their lives.  No one mentions those moves.  We focus on what we want to fit a certain agenda driven drivel.  To be honest the entire coaching staffs and scouting from the lowest levels to the Majors would all need to be released after the season and a new GM brought in to rebuild from the bottom up.  This way those hired may very well be all on the same page with one agenda and one direction.  Duquette, Showalter, their staffs, friends, consultants along with Brady Anderson are either part of the problem or are entirely the problem if one is to believe what gets posted on these agenda driven threads.

You realize one of the first roster casualties when DD took over was Pat Neshek - future all star and still pitching effectively today.  DD inherited a ****-ton of talent on the 40 man roster and in the minors

I don't want everyone to go.  DD has put together IMO one of the better combinations of scouting directors and player development teams that this organization has had in a long time.

[Babypowder]

2 hours ago, Cumberbundy said:

Made short work of the Jays in Toronto. That makes dominant starts in Tor, Ny & Boston. If Bridwell started for Wade or Baldy we may be leading for the WC. Who'd uh thunk it. The enthusiasm on this board would be out of control if we had Bridwell performing like this. We'd have 100 threads about building around it and he'd be a deadline "untouchable". The combination of Tillman & this start just makes me want to turn off the lights, fire up some scented candles, and jam out to Sarah mclachlan while I try to find myself and think of inventions that will keep me from losing my keys. 

Actually, I'd be saying the same things I've been saying already... bridwell has a LOB% over 90 percent, his k rate is under 6, his FIP is over 5.

This is a small sample size mirage.

[sportsfan8703]

Maybe this should be on the coaches in AAA a little. I'm sure McDowell didn't get to work with him too much.  None of the SP's have looked good in AAA this year. Might be time to shake things up there. 

Plus wasn't Mills in AA when Bridwell was there?  He didn't suggest those changes?  

[Cumberbundy]

42 minutes ago, Babypowder said:

Actually, I'd be saying the same things I've been saying already... bridwell has a LOB% over 90 percent, his k rate is under 6, his FIP is over 5.

This is a small sample size mirage.

When someone starts a sentence with "actually" I expect a refutation. Interesting post.

 

[Malike]

3 hours ago, Babypowder said:

Actually, I'd be saying the same things I've been saying already... bridwell has a LOB% over 90 percent, his k rate is under 6, his FIP is over 5.

This is a small sample size mirage.

People don't like facts. They like to lament, just because. Don't forget the 2.0 HR/9. But hey, he's got a 4-1 record with a nice ERA! He must be the real deal.

[Camden_yardbird]

10 hours ago, Babypowder said:

Actually, I'd be saying the same things I've been saying already... bridwell has a LOB% over 90 percent, his k rate is under 6, his FIP is over 5.

This is a small sample size mirage.

Here is the thing though, guys out perform their peripherals, and if you are lucky enough to get that performance out of them, and minimize the regression, you end up leading the wildcard instead of hoping Jeremy Hellickson can eat some innings for you while sputter to the finish.

Championships are won on the backs of players outperforming their peripherals.