TT: Is Bridwell's success with the Angels a strike against the Orioles?

[Can_of_corn]

27 minutes ago, 99ct said:

What's the 3 inning thing? I must have missed that conversation

O's have been having some of their pitchers working every five days and only going three innings.  Allows for an extra bullpen session.  It's been working well for those they have tried it with.

[weams]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

O's have been having some of their pitchers working every five days and only going three innings.  Allows for an extra bullpen session.  It's been working well for those they have tried it with.

It seems to be a good concept. 

[Tony-OH]

5 minutes ago, ISU94 said:

If you are reading anything I'm saying there's no way you can possibly say that I think DD can do no wrong. I have said in just about every post I've made how I want the guy gone and those were bad trades. I'm just not saying everything the guy has done is wrong and making these arms he's dealt out to be some guys that would be some savior to this team right now. I'm sorry, but I really don't think players like Ariel Miranda, Parker Bridwell, Triggs, or Davies (unless what he did in 2016 is a sign of what his future will be...even though this year he is struggling) is changing where this franchise is.

 

Edit: As for the last part, yes, it definitely would. But last year we were in the thick of things and needed a veteran starter in the back of our rotation. After that deal was made 90% of this forum wasn't huge on Miley but thought heck, all we did was deal Miranda. Now, he's had some success (also has gotten lucky and looks to be falling a bit back down to earth) and we are looking at is as another one of those Davies for Parra trades when I don't think they are really the same at all. 

But people on this board are not paid to evaluate Miranda and most if not 99.9% of them never saw him pitch besides the two innings he pitched in relief for the Orioles. 

Saying that, I don't think that trade was even close to as bad as the Davies trade. Now I was always a big fan of Davies, much more than most scouts, so I'm sure this is something to do with it, but the Orioles were going absolute nowhere that year and Parra was a pure rental. Miley came with some controllability so if you thought you could fix him then I can see why they went after him. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, weams said:

It seems to be a good concept. 

Five-Three-One.  I think it can work.

Lot more viable than some of my other plans.

[Reboulet'sStache]

5 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Ariel Miranda: 2.6 WAR in 1+ seasons, ~$1m

Zach Davies: 3.5 WAR in 2 1/2 seasons, $1.5m

Andrew Triggs: 0.5 WAR in 1+ seasons, $1m

Parker Bridwell: 1.0 WAR in 1/2 season, $550k

Just those guys have put up 7.6 WAR and have cost a total of about $4m over the last couple years.

Thread should have ended here.  It's impossible to defend what the organization has done. The value they have given up for absolutely nothing is mind boggling.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

But people on this board are not paid to evaluate Miranda and most if not 99.9% of them never saw him pitch besides the two innings he pitched in relief for the Orioles. 

Saying that, I don't think that trade was even close to as bad as the Davies trade. Now I was always a big fan of Davies, much more than most scouts, so I'm sure this is something to do with it, but the Orioles were going absolute nowhere that year and Parra was a pure rental. Miley came with some controllability so if you thought you could fix him then I can see why they went after him. 

Not only was Parra a pure rental but he was the poster child for the term regression candidate.  If you are going to throw away a pitching prospect for a corner outfielder rental can you at least make it someone who is actually good?

[Il BuonO]

"That was a shock. For years, the Orioles had harped on the importance of establishing and locating four-seam fastballs. This season, he has halved his four-seam usage in favor of a cutter, slider and sinker, and six of his seven outings as an Angel have been successful."

While the Orioles continue to run Ubaldo and Miley to mound every five days, Parker Bridwell was discarded for nothing. Like trading Davies and Miranda, the Orioles assessed that what they had was better than what these guys could give them at the major league level. The real question is, who are making these evaluations?"

I can remember watching Wieters call 12 FBs in a row to start the game with Tillman back when he was pitching well. It was one of those games when his FB was sitting 89-90 and the hitters were all over him. I was screaming at the TV,"Can you call for another freaking pitch???" Of course, Tillman could have shaken him off, but he didn't. Adair was the PC and "establishing the FB" was a big part of the strategy to start a game.

"It also is a concern that another organization took a player struggling on the Orioles system, showed him what he was doing wrong, and helped make him a pretty successful big league starter."

This is the biggest takeaway. It's development. Sure, the evals for the guys noted aren't helping, but developing successful pitchers might change the final evaluation. The overall strategy for pitchers in the organization lacks vision.

[Tx Oriole]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

There in lies the real question. I know for a fact that the development team implements things that come from Duquette. They do not have full autonomy to develop how they would like. 

Wow Tony that is bad. Mr. Angelos do the right thing and fire DD. 

[LA2]

1 hour ago, LookitsPuck said:

Ariel Miranda: 2.6 WAR in 1+ seasons, ~$1m

Zach Davies: 3.5 WAR in 2 1/2 seasons, $1.5m

Andrew Triggs: 0.5 WAR in 1+ seasons, $1m

Parker Bridwell: 1.0 WAR in 1/2 season, $550k

Just those guys have put up 7.6 WAR and have cost a total of about $4m over the last couple years.

Urghghghhh....

[allquixotic]

Definitely the development staff and/or their management are at fault. It's been a decades long trend with this organization. The whole business feels like it's in rigor mortis. It's incapable of acknowledging that sometimes things change.

"Baseball is a sport of tradition"? Yeah right. The ones that win World Series break with tradition.

[Lucky_13]

I think Buck is also at fault to a certain extent. He has a great amount of influence in the organization and I think this extends to the minor leagues. The one thing with Buck is that if he doesn't deem you one of his guys then you don't play. Look at Kim this year. 

I would bet that when Buck and Dan were discussing these guys, Davies was "too skinny" , Miranda too old, and Bridwell was just another guy who walked too many. If you aren't deemed a nugget by Buck you lose. Just look at Teagarden, Duquette had to cut him mid season to get Buck to stop playing him.

I don't think Billy Beane is some genius, but he had a point when he said "we aren't selling jeans here." I think Buck lets his eyes make too many decisions and not the results. 

[eddie83]

3 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

Ariel Miranda: 2.6 WAR in 1+ seasons, ~$1m

Zach Davies: 3.5 WAR in 2 1/2 seasons, $1.5m

Andrew Triggs: 0.5 WAR in 1+ seasons, $1m

Parker Bridwell: 1.0 WAR in 1/2 season, $550k

Just those guys have put up 7.6 WAR and have cost a total of about $4m over the last couple years.

I just can't disagree more with this. We are suppose to assume that Miranda who would have been a starter in the AL East would have been as effective? Baseball-Reference says that this year Safeco has a pitching rating of 100 and hitting 100. Meanwhile Camden is at 88 and 89 this year. 

I would like to meet the person who thinks that our park is a pitchers park? In April and May if it is cold it plays bigger, not now. Those numbers are comical. I saw a HR tonight that went about 366 feet when the ball is flying. 

Davies has an ERA of 4.76 and no DH is going to be an effective starter in the AL East? Triggs had 65 innings this year. So far Bridwell has 39 innings. 

I don't subscribe to the idea that is a pitcher has an ERA+ of whatever the number is it is just some simple math that you can convert to another team. 

I don't think Miley and Ubaldo would be quality starters on any team, not saying that. 

 

[eddie83]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think we have a serious problem with developing and evaluating pitchers.    Where that problem originates and who is responsible and what can be done to fix it is beyond my competence.    All I can say is, that problem existed long before Dan and Buck arrived on the scene.    I don't think they caused it, but they've certainly failed to fix it.

There are just way too many stories of pitchers who leave here and immediately improve to think that's it's just random chance.   

I just think this idea that a ton of pitchers improve after they leave is not accurate. Should the Yanks be ripped over Nova? 

The sports best pitching staffs are not littered with teams that have developed all their own. There is usually a mixture. Early on Dan hit on Chen and Gonzalez and since he has whiffed, he deserves criticism for that. He wasted number one picks on Gallardo and Ubaldo, can't defend that either. 

[baltfan]

I think the Orioles get too cute.  They have their guys always working on weaknesses and they never seem to get the confidence that comes with success.  Sure it would be great to have no weaknesses as a pitcher, but the truth is there will always be some thing that you are better at than others. Sometimes, you need to just learn to work around your weaknesses.  

After a certain period of time we should just have our guys go out and try to win.  Work on stuff during blowouts and spring

[eddie83]

In the DD era the Orioles top drafted pitchers have been Gausman, Harvey, Sedlock and Hall. He inherited Bundy. 

Gausman warts and all had 3 solid seasons prior to this year, Harvey got hurt, Sedlock hasn't showed much. Bundy has shown his talent when healthy. 

I am not saying that other teams have not had more success developing starters than the Orioles. That said it isn't like we have been making top 5, top 10 picks since Dan arrived. What happened in 1999 or 2003 or 2006 has nothing to do with right now.