Don’t you wish that just once....

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, hoosiers said:

I have been here for over 15 years - maybe 16,  If you think we have been winning because DD is our GM, there is no reason to have a discussion.

You are right, no reason for discussion

The Orioles was as bad a team as you could find in baseball.

They didn't get better without organization moves at the top.

Sure you can play the blame for Jake A at the organization, most fans was ready to help him back his bags when he left. Do you ever think that maybe sometimes the player is part of the problem?

No GM is ever perfect, and you can complain about the ones that didnt work.

But, what about the ones that did work, do you dislike the man so intensely that you can't give credit where credit is due?

[LookitsPuck]

Yes, but I also think the way that the O's handle player acquisitions feeds into this issue, too.

If Duquette doesn't trade picks along with players for salary relief or an overpay, maybe we have more chances to get a potential TOR starter. Examples: the Bud Norris trade, Ryan Webb trade, Brian Matusz trade, etc.

And then there's Duquette's recent inability to sign free agent starting pitchers. We lost a 1st rounder for Ubaldo f'ing Jimenez. We lost a 1st rounder for an injured Yovani Gallardo. 

And there are a number of trades that were ill advised at the least...and idiotic at the most. One of the big ones that sticks out is trading Davies for Parra when the team had no business of "going for it" especially if they thought "going for it" was acquiring a guy ripe for regression like Parra.

...and then there's how the Orioles overpay/hold on to the wrong players instead of letting them walk for draft picks. The Chris Davis signing was an absolute blunder. Maybe signing him for nearly half of what he got would have been fine, but $160m+? Jesus. Resigning Mark Trumbo was a blunder. 

I don't care what anybody says, but not flipping Jim Johnson after 2012 when he was still 29 and relatively affordable (he made $2.7m) was irresponsible. Instead Duquette held on to him and then traded him to the Athletics for nothing when he was at a $10m salary.

It's not like Duquette *can't* be effective when making trades/acquiring starters. Examples: Miguel Gonzalez, Wei-Yin Chen and Jason Hammel.  But he hasn't been effective in quite a long time.

We've shot ourself in the foot quite a few times outside of the above, too. The way this club handled Arrieta and the merry-go-round of pitching coaches didn't help. Not allowing him to use his cutter didn't help. Having an insane infatuation with time to plate didn't help. And guess what? A lot of that is on Showalter, although the cutter nonsense is 100% on Duquette and his disciples that he hired that pushed it.

[Redskins Rick]

3 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

Fair enough.

My point is they acquired a cheap average starter at the deadline with 2.5 years of control.  They gave up a 45 FV prospect at the time in Hoes, a 40 FV prospect at the time in Hader (maybe some had a 45 on him), and the pick.  The pick is the most valuable of those assets (at the time).  Compared to other deadline deals, I think it wasn't a good trade or a bad trade, just the normal high cost of doing business at the deadline.

And Bud was pretty solid for the team in 2014, when they made their WS run.

I agree with you, cost of doing business and taking your shot, when they had the chance.

[Ohfan67]

27 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

Parker Bridwell and Ariel Miranda are fringe guys, I place no blame there.  Hader was moved in a trade that made sense at the time.  Davies was a mistake at the time, really bad trade.

I also hate the Orioles habit of paying players for what they've already done rather than future production.

I also do agree that the Orioles need to do a better job of understanding their own talent.  You can argue the importance of this type of thing, but the Orioles lost Brallan Perez in the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft for no reason.  And then to add insult to injury Roch says in his blog they were hoping not to lose Jay Gonzalez who has the ceiling of an Org guy.  I might be too high on Brallan Perez, but I absolutely guarantee he has a better chance of being a MLB asset than Jay Gonzalez.

A couple of hearty, "Amen brother!''s. The lost pitching via trades was bad, but I find the Gallardo, Jimenez, etc., contracts even grosser. 

[Luke-OH]

Just now, Ohfan67 said:

A couple of hearty, "Amen brother!''s. The lost pitching via trades was bad, but I find the Gallardo, Jimenez, etc., contracts even grosser. 

Gallardo and Jimenez are/were the cost of doing business on the fringes of the starting pitching market.  Part of that is DD's slow moving style, another part is the "team philosophy" against long term pitching deals.

[Redskins Rick]

4 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

A couple of hearty, "Amen brother!''s. The lost pitching via trades was bad, but I find the Gallardo, Jimenez, etc., contracts even grosser. 

Of course, we have gone off the subject of drafting guys as TOR and developing them.

 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Who was the first round pick turn out to be?

Hoes has a -.4 WAR with Houston

Hader did a 1.9 WAR with the Brewers

Bud was 1.9 and then -1.5 and -.3 with the team. He was very solid in 2014, and helped them win the division.

So far not a huge overpay, but could be depending on the pick and Hader.

Hoes never really flip the meter for me one way or another.

 

If you look back at that thread I had three reactions.

When we heard it was Hoes going :  Nice deal.

When we heard it was Hoes and Hader going:  Not real happy about losing Hader but it's OK I guess.

When we heard it was Hoes, Hader, and a first round pick:  This is too much to give up for Norris.

I don't care who the first round pick turned out to be (BTW he's playing in the majors already) since the O's wouldn't have picked the same player and he wouldn't have been developed the same way even if they had.

[hoosiers]

I have no desire to have this discussion with you.  

It's not hate.  It's objectively looking at what was inherited, the sum of the GM's transactions, and where we are today. 

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

If you look back at that thread I had three reactions.

When we heard it was Hoes going :  Nice deal.

When we heard it was Hoes and Hader going:  Not real happy about losing Hader but it's OK I guess.

When we heard it was Hoes, Hader, and a first round pick:  This is too much to give up for Norris.

I don't care who the first round pick turned out to be (BTW he's playing in the majors already) since the O's wouldn't have picked the same player and he wouldn't have been developed the same way even if they had.

true

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

Gallardo and Jimenez are/were the cost of doing business on the fringes of the starting pitching market.  Part of that is DD's slow moving style, another part is the "team philosophy" against long term pitching deals.

Also the team philosophy against paying market money for elite starters.

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Also the team philosophy against paying market money for elite starters.

I have a bit of a problem paying $31mil a year for a guy that plays every 5 days.

Sorry, its just me, and I know, thats the cost of doing business.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Redskins Rick said:

I have a bit of a problem paying $31mil a year for a guy that plays every 5 days.

Sorry, its just me, and I know, thats the cost of doing business.

I'm generally opposed to playing in the deep end of the free agent market for pitchers or position players.

[VeveJones007]

It’s definitely this organization’s achilles heal.

[tntoriole]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Also the team philosophy against paying market money for elite starters.

That is certainly true.   So much of our success will continue to hinge on hitting our draft picks to form the core particularly given ownership anathema to international free agents.   In that regard, we need to hoard our picks like they were gold, not waste them on a Jiminez, Gallardo, Parra “upgrade” process.   

I do think that our scouting, drafting and selections have been much, much improved from the days of Beau Hale and Mike Paradis.  

[LookitsPuck]

25 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Also the team philosophy against paying market money for elite starters.

Well, yeah. But look at the Indians club. 

• Kluber - $7.7m
• Carrasco - $6.5m
• Bauer - $3.5m 
• Tomlin - $2.5m
• Clevinger - League minimum?

...I mean they have one of the (if not the) best rotations in baseball. Their combined salary from 2017 was less than Sabathia's by nearly $5m.