What Do You Think was Communicated

[Aristotelian]

The bigger question is what directive has PA communicated to the baseball operations people? Based on Buck and DD's contracts, it seems the directive is "Do what you can to compete through 2018, worry about the rest later. By the way, any major signing is going to have to go through my desk and I don't like to spend on pitching." DD appears to be doing as told and as incentivized by his contract.

[Tx Oriole]

10 hours ago, hoosiers said:

to our owner regarding the competitiveness of this year's team?  

Do you think our front office came to the conclusion early this offseason that we could compete?  That there was a way "there" from "here".  Run up that payroll to $160+M.  Deal a reliever for a prospect SP.  Sign a FA SP.  Trade prospects for a SP (Duffy).  And then we would have a quality team in MM's walk year.  I think PA has been told for years that we would be good through MM's walk year and our competiveness could be enhanced by a generous bump in payroll.

Or do you think our front office spent the early offseason accepting the difference between us and the top teams in the AL as of the end of last season?  Then factored in payroll capacity of each team, the farm system of each team and realized we were not going to compete?  That we should be in full re-build mode?  As advocated by the national media.

I know there is a lot of venom directed at our owner and some of it (lack of international spend, apparent convoluted transaction approval process between the owner and the GM) is deserved.  But I believe there is a strong likelihood that PA might feel he has been mis-led regarding the competiveness of the 2018 team (perhaps for several years - and that the best, first step in the process forward is dealing MM).  And, while I am sure PA is capable of dealing with all sorts of new realities (including the path that deals off his superstar 3B) might not be very easy to accept given the communication of plans to compete (or "re-load" as DD said earlier this offseason).

 

Well my goodness can he honestly believe this team can compete in 2018? 

[Tx Oriole]

5 hours ago, joeyc said:

What should be communicated is that we have zero shot at competing in this division and we need to have a fire sale with all the pending free agents while we can get something for them Also it should be communicated that we need to sign Schoop NOW to a long term extension or trade him, while his value is at his highest point. That's what should be communicated. We need to rebuild like the Astros did. It's our only chance to compete. We have to get Major league ready young talent. There are only about 6 teams in all of MLB that can CONSISTENTLY YEARLY compete for a world series, The rest of the teams are on trial basis'. In a few years when Altuve, Correa, etc. are ready for new contracts, they won't be Astros, I promise you that. Houston will not be able to afford them. Major League Baseball has a real problem with the way things are structured and with the way the market prices are going through the roof. If they don't do something to fix it, the interest in MLB is going to die. Just like it's becoming in the NBA. Nobody cares about it anymore unless your fans of a few teams.

I wish the O's would do what Houston did. 

[Tx Oriole]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

If the point of this thread is to shift blame off of Angelos and onto Duquette, I’m not buying it.    No matter what was communicated, a 10-year old could see:

1.   In 2016, the team made the wild card by the skin of its teeth with a closer who was perfect and with a healthy Tillman to complement Gausman and Bundy. There was no room for slippage.

2.    In 2017 the pitching was a disaster, and our rotation was going to have three open slots.    On the plus side, the departing starters were paid about $32 mm, so there was some money available to address this.

3.   Trying to solve the pitching woes solely through trades wasn’t going to work, because when you trade you weaken yourself in some other area, and the O’s margin of error is so thin that we couldn’t really afford to weaken the lineup or the bullpen to bolster the rotation, or to weaken the farm system.    

Hence PA really shouldn’t have needed anyone to tell him that his choice was simple: (1) spend some significant cash to upgrade the pitching, or (2) wave the white flag and rebuild.    

Watching us hem and haw all the way to Christmas is pretty nauseating, and I don’t blame that on a lack of communication.   

You have a great point Frobby. 

[Tx Oriole]

58 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I expect the owner to be able to see what even the most casual fan can see.   If Angelos won’t spend on pitching but also won’t act decisively on a rebuild, there’s not much Duquette can do about it.    And there’s not much point in speculating what’s been communicated between them, because nobody here has any earthly idea.     But I don’t see how PA could have been misled about facts that are as plain as the nose on his face.    

I think he is stubborn old man. 

[BirdinBama]

I fail to understand how ownership sees this team as anything but last place in the AL East. Everyone, even the casual fan, knows it.

If the rumored offer from the Cubs was on the table, and we did not jump at it, I am done as a fan.

[Frobby]

39 minutes ago, hoosiers said:

So when DD arrived here after all that losing, are you saying it was evident to PA that we were ready to win and it was PA who directed DD to go sign players like Jason Hammel to compete?  It is odd to me that many folks want an owner not involved in baseball decisions, yet some here post that the direction of the team/personnel decisions should flow from what should be obvious to the owner ...... ?

I think for a long time our front office believed we could compete in 2018 and built the team toward that.  And likely communicated that to the owner.

Somewhere along the lines in the past three to six months, folks here are saying it should be obvious that we are not competitive and should likely enter a rebuild phase.  Yet we entered this offseason with designs on landing FAs plus attempting to trade for guys like Duffy.  Are those actions the result of an owner directing his front office to put as competitiveness a product on the major league team as possible (and this direction might be completely opposite the recommendation of our front office that it was time for a rebuild starting with MM)?  Or a front office recommending that we could compete and asking ownership for permission to deal top prospects and ramp up payroll?  

To be clear about my own views:

1.    There is little or nothing we could do that would make it likely that we would finish ahead of the Yankees and Red Sox in 2018.    That was apparent before the ridiculous Stanton deal and became even more clear when that deal happened.   

2.   However, the AL has two wild cards, not one, and going into the offseason I felt we still had some shot at that second WC spot IF WE ADDRESSED THE ROTATION.   And, with better pitching, there might be some chance of a playoff run if we got there.

3.   It’s only become clear in recent weeks that the O’s weren’t willing to spend any serious money on starting pitching.   Since that’s the case, I don’t see how the Orioles can compete even for the 2nd WC in 2018.

4.    Yesterday’s news of Britton’s injury was one more nail in a coffin already shut pretty tightly by no. 3.

5.    Hence, there’s really no point in holding Manny through 2018.   I’m not going to fret over exactly when we pull the trigger, but the trigger needs to be pulled.    

6.   I’m dreading the 2018 season right now.   It was so awful last year getting home right around game time, eating dinner, checking my phone to see the score only to see we were already losing by multiple runs in the 2nd inning practically every other game.   There were many games I never turned on because we were losing by a lot before I could finish eating.   I cannot believe we haven’t even begun to address that situation.

[webbrick2010]

The original post makes two assumptions that I don't buy

1. DD has a plan for the Orioles roster that looks more than a week ahead

2. DD communicates at all with Peter Angelos

[hoosiers]

5 hours ago, RZNJ said:

Peter Angelos certainly doesn't listen to one person and it's possible, even probable, that he doesn't give the most weight to Dan Duquettes opinion.   I'm not sure I understand the point/question of the OP.   I think the organization "consensus" was that we could be "competitive" this year and next with a faily big turnover of players between this year and next.   I think that's what PA believes.  

Perhaps it is semantics to some here, but I am asking ...

if you think PA believes we could be competitive this year based on his opinion and instructed the front office to work a plan that could result in our being competitive 

OR

do you think our front office has led PA believe that the Os could be competitive with the big turnover and recommended a course of action for 2018 that presumably would make us competitive?

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, hoosiers said:

Perhaps it is semantics to some here, but I am asking ...

if you think PA believes we could be competitive this year based on his opinion and instructed the front office to work a plan that could result in our being competitive 

OR

do you think our front office has led PA believe that the Os could be competitive with the big turnover and recommended a course of action for 2018 that presumably would make us competitive?

Honestly, I have no idea what he’s thinking or what he’s been told.   All I know is, regardless of what he’s been told, he shouldn‘t be thinking that the team can compete without spending significant money to upgrade the pitching.    And he should understand that “compete” means fielding an 85-90 wIn team that probably finishes third in the AL East.

[gtman55]

59 minutes ago, BirdinBama said:

I fail to understand how ownership sees this team as anything but last place in the AL East. Everyone, even the casual fan, knows it.

If the rumored offer from the Cubs was on the table, and we did not jump at it, I am done as a fan.

I've been an Orioles fan since the early 60's. First game I saw with my dad, Jim Gentile was at first base. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm to the point I almost don't care. Angelos has been a bit of a cancer to this team. I've never seen a more dysfunctional management team.  Honestly, it's not just frustrating, it's almost embarrassing.

I sit back and watch all the other teams making smart moves to better themselves. The O's on the other hand, sit around with their finger up their ass waiting for things to miraculously fall their way. PATHETIC.

[eddie83]

1 hour ago, hoosiers said:

Perhaps it is semantics to some here, but I am asking ...

if you think PA believes we could be competitive this year based on his opinion and instructed the front office to work a plan that could result in our being competitive 

OR

do you think our front office has led PA believe that the Os could be competitive with the big turnover and recommended a course of action for 2018 that presumably would make us competitive?

Or Does Peter have the guts to tell the fan base we are going to be down for a little while but hang in there?

Feels like to me he may be afraid to do that and instead straddles the fence. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Or Does Peter have the guts to tell the fan base we are going to be down for a little while but hang in there?

Feels like to me he may be afraid to do that and instead straddles the fence. 

Peter talks to the fans?

[eddie83]

19 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Peter talks to the fans?

Verbally no. 

[Satyr3206]

3 hours ago, hoosiers said:

So when DD arrived here after all that losing, are you saying it was evident to PA that we were ready to win and it was PA who directed DD to go sign players like Jason Hammel to compete?  It is odd to me that many folks want an owner not involved in baseball decisions, yet some here post that the direction of the team/personnel decisions should flow from what should be obvious to the owner ...... ?

I think for a long time our front office believed we could compete in 2018 and built the team toward that.  And likely communicated that to the owner.

Somewhere along the lines in the past three to six months, folks here are saying it should be obvious that we are not competitive and should likely enter a rebuild phase.  Yet we entered this offseason with designs on landing FAs plus attempting to trade for guys like Duffy.  Are those actions the result of an owner directing his front office to put as competitiveness a product on the major league team as possible (and this direction might be completely opposite the recommendation of our front office that it was time for a rebuild starting with MM)?  Or a front office recommending that we could compete and asking ownership for permission to deal top prospects and ramp up payroll?  

I would like to make a point. When an Owner says competitive he really means, keep the Fans buying tickets, but we aren't winning the WS or anywhere close.