The Athletic: Buck Showalter's Job No Longer Secure

[Ohfan67]

The Orioles season has reached the point where the GM and manager (and others like Brady) should not be brought back. It's also scary that the current leadership may make decisions regarding trades that could help shape the next three or four years of the future. This is shaping up to be the worst Oriole season since 1988 and maybe the worst in modern history. You can't just shrug and keep going along the same path. It's reached the you-can't-put-the-toothpaste-back-in-the-tube point. 

[spiritof66]

8 minutes ago, NashLumber said:

Which is frickin’ amazing to me. What has he done to *earn* this? Brady Anderson, a strength, nutrition and conditioning coach / advisor has become this important in his opinions to ownership. Just unreal. If this is the way the world works (the world the Orioles live in), Richie Bancels should have taken over this regime long ago. 

Seems to me he has perfected sycophancy to an art form. 

While Brady lacks the credentials and experience that most other teams would insist on before granting someone an important role in player personnel decisions, Brady is an intelligent, personable, attractive and (it appears) very diligent and responsible guy. I suspect that the Angeloses think they know everything they need to know about the business side of baseball, and  that Brady checks one of the two boxes they can't: he played the game for a long time, successfully, and knows a lot more than they do about it. (The other box is the boring, in-the-weeds mechanics of making trades, options, the waiver wire, that sort of thing. You can just hire someone to do that stuff.)

To Peter Angelos, success is not about credentials or qualifications. He prides himself on having become successful without the credentials that, in his view, other MLB owners have because they were born to wealth and privilege. Peter Angelos made his fortune not from his credentials or his legal expertise or his professional experience, but from building and capitalizing on relationships -- with the labor unions whose members were exposed to asbestos, with Baltimore judges, and with Maryland legislators and politicians. As others have pointed out, the number one priority for Angelos in assessing his underlings is their loyalty to him -- which I would define as the ability of Oriole employees to recognize, and display their recognition, the fact that Angelos is right about everything, their doing things that demonstrate support for Angelos's judgments and opinions, and their never doing or saying anything that calls those judgments and beliefs into question. I surmise that Brady has shown that kind of loyalty -- and, probably, has been obvious about it. -- more than others in the organization . 

[sportsfan8703]

2 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I guess that happens when you convince someone to spend $161MM on a guy who falls off the planet shortly thereafter. 

That's a fireable offense in and of itself!!!

Didn’t Adam Jones go to Big Petey on lobby for Davis?

[NashLumber]

1 hour ago, NashLumber said:

Which is frickin’ amazing to me. What has he done to *earn* this? Brady Anderson, a strength, nutrition and conditioning coach / advisor has become this important in his opinions to ownership. Just unreal. If this is the way the world works (the world the Orioles live in), Richie Bancels should have taken over this regime long ago. 

Seems to me he has perfected sycophancy to an art form. 

 

25 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

While Brady lacks the credentials and experience that most other teams would insist on before granting someone an important role in player personnel decisions, Brady is an intelligent, personable, attractive and (it appears) very diligent and responsible guy. I suspect that the Angeloses think they know everything they need to know about the business side of baseball, and  that Brady checks one of the two boxes they can't: he played the game for a long time, successfully, and knows a lot more than they do about it. (The other box is the boring, in-the-weeds mechanics of making trades, options, the waiver wire, that sort of thing. You can just hire someone to do that stuff.)

To Peter Angelos, success is not about credentials or qualifications. He prides himself on having become successful without the credentials that, in his view, other MLB owners have because they were born to wealth and privilege. Peter Angelos made his fortune not from his credentials or his legal expertise or his professional experience, but from building and capitalizing on relationships -- with the labor unions whose members were exposed to asbestos, with Baltimore judges, and with Maryland legislators and politicians. As others have pointed out, the number one priority for Angelos in assessing his underlings is their loyalty to him -- which I would define as the ability of Oriole employees to recognize, and display their recognition, the fact that Angelos is right about everything, their doing things that demonstrate support for Angelos's judgments and opinions, and their never doing or saying anything that calls those judgments and beliefs into question. I surmise that Brady has shown that kind of loyalty -- and, probably, has been obvious about it. -- more than others in the organization . 

That’s a good analysis of how Brady’s loyalty (which seems obvious) got him there and I suppose my question was more rhetorical than not. But I think Angelos clearly missed the boat on Brady’s ability to eye lasting talent and to make reasonable decisions on whom to sign to expensive contracts. To have played the game at a reasonably high level is still not a guarantee of success in management decisions. Similarly, it’s why I think the hiring of someone like Cal, for instance, in some FO capacity may have the plus of some re-instating of The Oriole Way, there’s no guarantee that he’d be a good administrator nor judge of sustained talent. Yet just as Cal at this stage of his life may feels he’s above being a field manager, president of baseball operations, or director of minor league affiliates (or they just don’t interest him), Brady seems to not want a part of the nuts and bolts of a GM job, but wants something, for lack of a better word, “important”. He just seems to crave more of a “say” whatever that may entail. To borrow a Buck phrase, he just doesn’t seem to have a “track record” of success to justify having more “say”. I’d prefer he move on. I don’t see it happening. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

12 minutes ago, NashLumber said:

 

That’s a good analysis of how Brady’s loyalty (which seems obvious) got him there and I suppose my question was more rhetorical than not. But I think Angelos clearly missed the boat on Brady’s ability to eye lasting talent and to make reasonable decisions on whom to sign to expensive contracts. To have played the game at a reasonably high level is still not a guarantee of success in management decisions. Similarly, it’s why I think the hiring of someone like Cal, for instance, in some FO capacity may have the plus of some re-instating of The Oriole Way, there’s no guarantee that he’d be a good administrator nor judge of sustained talent. Yet just as Cal at this stage of his life may feels he’s above being a field manager, president of baseball operations, or director of minor league affiliates (or they just don’t interest him), Brady seems to not want a part of the nuts and bolts of a GM job, but wants something, for lack of a better word, “important”. He just seems to crave more of a “say” whatever that may entail. To borrow a Buck phrase, he just doesn’t seem to have a “track record” of success to justify having more “say”. I’d prefer he move on. I don’t see it happening. 

I would love to see Billy Ripken join the organization and straighten out the minor league affiliates from A to Z.  Get all the affiliates on the same page in player development and fundamentals.  

[Rene88]

1 hour ago, NashLumber said:

Which is frickin’ amazing to me. What has he done to *earn* this? Brady Anderson, a strength, nutrition and conditioning coach / advisor has become this important in his opinions to ownership. Just unreal. If this is the way the world works (the world the Orioles live in), Richie Bancels should have taken over this regime long ago. 

Seems to me he has perfected sycophancy to an art form. 

We need to see Brady leave this org to know there has been real change. Not just the new flavor (Andy McPhail, Buck, DD, Brady....until the next guy appears).

What a broken mess!

[Tx Oriole]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't see the point in changing who is at the helm when his contract is up after this season anyway.

Unless of course they think they can get whomever it is they want to marshal the team through the rebuild.

I'd rather they just hire a GM in the offseason and have them hire the next manager.

That's what I wish would happen. 

[Tx Oriole]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'll do it.

So will many other people.

It's still one of thirty.

Maybe so. I wouldn't work for that man for all the money in the world. 

[Hallas]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yep.  

My expectations for them aren't high, either.

But you're right, the best we can hope for is a little spurt like we had from 2012-2017.  It's funny, looking back on it now I think those teams were a product of the Yanks/Sox having down years just as much as anything else.  

We can't ever compete with them head to head with the way they are both trending now.  Both have unlimited payrolls and have built correctly.  The Orioles don't.  

I honestly don't care who the next manager is.  I'm sure I'll have an opinion, but it could be Tony LaRussa, it could be someone that's never managed a game before in his life and it won't matter.   Next batting coach, pitching coach, whatever.  I'll be excited to see who we get back for Manny if we end up trading him.  But, IMO, none of it really matters with the current ownership, heirs, and Brady in place.

I don't think 2017 counts.  We lost 87 games.

If you don't mind enduring 3-4 years of being the 2011-2013 Houston Astros,  you could in theory set yourself up for about 5 years of success once the draft picks pan out.  In Houston's case they started seeing fruits of their high picks in 2015.  But of course it's risky.  If you draft like Syd Thrift you're boned no matter what.

[Tx Oriole]

4 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I guess that happens when you convince someone to spend $161MM on a guy who falls off the planet shortly thereafter. 

That's a fireable offense in and of itself!!!

Only that was Peter Angelos call. Too bad he can't fire himself. 

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

It doesn't matter.

IMO, Buck's done enough goodwill for this franchise to go out when he wants this year.  I've said it a million times, firing him now and replacing him with an interim manager doesn't move the needle.

The bigger problems are upstairs.  Brady, the Angelos'.  We can banter back and forth on here all day along about the manager, nothing matters while Angelos is owner and Brady is in a power position.  

Until Peter Angelos is out and his sons prove that they're different...or his sons are gone, too....and Brady is gone....none of this matters.  Actually, I think the Manny trade return doesn't matter, the Jones trade return doesn't matter...none of it matters until the FO and ownership is completely overhauled and has a defined plan in place with a new, regime of smart baseball people.

You hit the nail on the head. 

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

100%.

It's the dark, ominous cloud under which we will have to live for a long, long time. We can have little victories here and there, maybe even once in a few decades win the division... but barring something unforeseen we will likely be owned by the Angelos family for a long time.

The boys will have to prove to many that they are in fact different than their father. My expectations are not high.

I'm just hope for the best. 

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, ScGO's said:

Yeah, but maybe its what he wants, and I could see him having similar influence upstairs to what he has now.  He already alluded to letting others handle majority of the transactions.  Who knows.  My guess it will be an interim from within the organization, or someone close to it.  For fun, I say they just let Rick Dempsy finish out the year.

Oh sh&t. 

[MagicBird]

4 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Showalter really shouldn't be brought back. His stubbornness in terms of playing "his guys" and his antiquated philosophy of how to win games (i.e., chicks dig the long ball) doesn't play well in this era. We need to bring someone in who understands the importance of defense and the ability to manufacture runs. And agree with the others who said we should hire a GM first then let them pick the manager. And Brady's gotta go. 

Dont think the "long ball" is an antiquated philosophy since teams are willing to put up with more strikeouts from players trying to hit the long ball.  The "long ball" is in.

[Uli2001]

3 hours ago, NashLumber said:

Which is frickin’ amazing to me. What has he done to *earn* this? Brady Anderson, a strength, nutrition and conditioning coach / advisor has become this important in his opinions to ownership. Just unreal. If this is the way the world works (the world the Orioles live in), Richie Bancels should have taken over this regime long ago. 

Seems to me he has perfected sycophancy to an art form. 

Two words: Sid Thryft.