Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[Luke-OH]

Just now, atomic said:

I judge hitters differently than you. I think high strike out, low average,  high power guys are overrated by WAR.  And their negativity increases with the more of them  you have on the tesm.

If we just used WAR to compare players Lou Whitaker is a better player than Jim Palmer.  I think without even looking at stats you would know Baines is a better player than Dunn.

Also with just using WAR it makes discussing players comparable worth boring.

I'm not talking about WAR. Are they overrated by OPS?

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Luke-OH said:

I'm not talking about WAR. Are they overrated by OPS?

Actually, they are.   OPS weighs OBP and SLG equally, whereas more sophisticated stats weight the OBP component more heavily.   

[Luke-OH]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

Actually, they are.   OPS weighs OBP and SLG equally, whereas more sophisticated stats weight the OBP component more heavily.   

I know, I was trying to work my way to a linear weight stat. I was afraid if I went straight to it, it would be summarily dismissed.

So to continue my argument, 

Adam Dunn - .367 wOBA, 123 wRC+

Harold Baines - .358 wOBA, 119 wRC+

[Can_of_corn]

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/david-lennon/harold-baines-hall-of-fame-david-lennon-ballot-1.24610024

Quote

Choosing to drop Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling, all of whom appeared on my ballot last year, was difficult. But in re-thinking my own evaluation process, as borderline candidates who sat atop the gray area — but still resided slightly below Olympus — they no longer fit.

 

[TonySoprano]

34 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/david-lennon/harold-baines-hall-of-fame-david-lennon-ballot-1.24610024

 

Quote

In a sense, I had been waiting for an opportunity to go this more exclusive route, and this week felt like the time.

Deciding to leave them out this year is not a statement, or punishment, or some sort of nefarious grandstanding ploy.

I've re-read that part a few times and I still don't get his "logic" for going a more "exclusive route" this year.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, TonySoprano said:

I've re-read that part a few times and I still don't get his "logic" for going a more "exclusive route" this year.

I don't get it either.

[Moose Milligan]

37 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/david-lennon/harold-baines-hall-of-fame-david-lennon-ballot-1.24610024

 

First of all, the article is titled:  

Why Harold Baines' election to the Hall of Fame makes me re-examine how I vote

So I'm expecting some deep introspection heading into this thing and some strong points about why Harold Baines is making this guy do a 180.

Let's take it from the top:

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Ultimately, for all of its historical pageantry, the criteria for induction into baseball’s Hall of Fame is whether or not a select group chooses to vote you in.

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Quote

That group could be 410 people, as it was for Chipper Jones, who appeared on 97.2 percent of the 422 ballots cast by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America last year. Or it could be 12 people, as it was last week for Harold Baines, who earned the minimum 75 percent from a 16-member panel, in this case the Today’s Game Era committee.

Correct.  Not sure if he's writing to baseball fans or people who just don't know the Baseball Hall of Fame from the Natural History Museum.

Quote

Once that person is stamped for Cooperstown, the debate should be over, the hurdles cleared, the gray area gone. But the controversy over Baines, who many saw as unworthy of the honor, stirred up a sentiment that I had been wrestling with ever since I cast my first ballot 13 years ago.

Oooo, he's wrestling!  Let's continue.

Quote

 

Staring at the 8-by-11 sheet of paper that arrives every November, do I go with the slam-dunk picks, the transcendent, once-in-a-generation stars? Or first check those boxes and then work my way down, operating in the margins, sometimes looking for reasons why a candidate should not be in the Hall of Fame rather than the opposite.

From the start, I chose the latter course, and leaned toward the larger group. And by the end of a player’s 10-year stay on the ballot, the candidates whom I voted for regularly got into Cooperstown. The BBWAA process, for all the flak it receives, tends to serve the Hall’s purposes very well.

 

I'm glad to know that the paper is 8 x 11.  It'd be weird if it was legal size.  

I understand this dude's struggle.  And I'm glad to know that he informs us that he mostly picks players that get inducted.  He picks winners.  I'm sure this guy is awesome at the race track.

Quote

But as the years went on, everyone became much more adept at statistical analysis. Careers were dissected like never before, and it seemed as if a credible Hall case could be made for a growing list of players — especially if they were compared to those already enshrined. And as that line blurred, I continued to think more about cutting back on my own list, returning to the idea of those who truly stood out as the immortal class.

It had been an ongoing conversation with some fellow writers who always had voted in that fashion. They looked at a ballot, checked the box next to the Hall of Famers who were obvious to them, and the rest fell into the category of very good — just not special enough to join what they believed to be a very exclusive club in Cooperstown. As a result, I found myself sort of stuck in the middle.

Stuck in the middle!  What a terrible place to be!  This guy has just identified himself as part of the herd.  Afraid to go against the grain, vote for who he wants and flip the bird to everyone else.  And this is after he's puffed out his chest by saying the guys he's voted for typically get elected.

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But the Baines ruling nudged me out of that Hall-voting inertia, and I’m not disparaging Baines. 

Yes you are.

Quote

Whether he deserves to be in Cooperstown was put in the hands of Hall of Famers themselves and very smart baseball people. While it’s true that three of the 16 — Tony La Russa, Jerry Reinsdorf and Pat Gillick — had strong connections to Baines, he still earned nine more votes. If the Hall’s board of directors is OK with this secondary committee system, who am I to shut them down? It’s their museum.

So open minded and cool!  Hey, who am I?  Just a guy who's established himself as a 13 year voter who wrestles with himself as to how to vote and then changes direction like a flag in the wind.

Quote

 

By comparison, Baines never received more than 6.1 percent of the BBWAA vote (75 percent is required for the HOF) before falling off the ballot entirely in 2011. With that prevailing opinion as the backdrop, La Russa launched into a spirited defense of Baines during an appearance on MLB Network last week in Las Vegas.

“I would love to get into a legitimate confrontation [and] debate where you pull all the stuff that we looked at and you tell me,” LaRussa said before adding some unsuitable-for- publication words, “that you look at, I guarantee you Harold [should be in]. Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer, and it’s a shame that now he’s being looked at as not right.”

 

Ok.

Quote

 

As far as I was concerned, the Baines debate steered us all back to the gray area again, first carving up his 22-year career like forensic scientists, then providing another long list of candidates who now should be granted immortality in Cooperstown as well. Maybe that’s unfair to Baines, but it’s how the Hall machinery operates in 2018, and there’s no reversing it now.

All of this led me to looking at my own process a bit differently this time, but in a way that I feel provides more clarity. Mariano Rivera, who is new on the ballot this year, is automatic. I think everyone agrees on that, even if he won’t be a unanimous selection (just because no one is, for whatever reason).

 

Ok...

Quote

 

As for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, we’ve already been over this a million times. Obviously, both fit the description as transcendent, once-in-a-generation players, as well as being among the greatest to put on a uniform. For the record, neither one was ever disciplined by Major League Baseball for performance-enhancing drugs, and in an extremely complicated era for all sports, that’s the threshold I go by when it comes to their Cooperstown eligibility.

It’s also worth noting that the BBWAA — the same organization that has kept both from the Hall thus far — voted Bonds the MVP seven times, including four straight from 2001-04, regardless of whatever suspicions floated around him. Clemens earned both the MVP and Cy Young Award from the BBWAA in 1986, and the writers voted him six more Cy Young Awards before his retirement in 2007.

 

Hey!  I like it when someone points out hypocrisy, that's always fun.  Well played, good sir, well played.

Quote

 

I’ve never wavered on Bonds and Clemens since they first appeared on the ballot in 2013, but plenty of others have flipped on them since, which is partly the reason why both have climbed from the high-30s percentage-wise to the high-50s last year. Given that neither has played a game during that period, a philosophical shift (or bending to backlash?) can be the only explanation.

But those three were the easy part. Choosing to drop Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling, all of whom appeared on my ballot last year, was difficult. But in re-thinking my own evaluation process, as borderline candidates who sat atop the gray area — but still resided slightly below Olympus — they no longer fit.

 

Never wavered on Bonds and Clemens, good for you!  This is the guy who picks winners.  

But apparently in December, 2017 he thought Edgar, Mussina and Schilling were Hall of Famers.  Now all of a sudden they're not.  Even though they all had better careers than the guy he's railing against but not railing against because he's trying to come across as cool.

Quote

In a sense, I had been waiting for an opportunity to go this more exclusive route, and this week felt like the time.

Sounds like a sorority girl during rush.

Quote

Deciding to leave them out this year is not a statement, or punishment, or some sort of nefarious grandstanding ploy. Believe me, I don’t have any holes in my life that have to be filled by attention over a Hall of Fame ballot.

Not a statement or a punishment or some grandstanding ploy?  Then what's this article about, why even write it?  

If anyone who's making statements like this guy has in this article and then starts his summary with a sentence like "Believe me," just don't believe him.  No holes in your life that have to be filled by attention over a HoF ballot?  Again, why write the article to inform everyone that you've voted for the HoF 13 times now, wrestle with how to vote and look to others for input?

Quote

The Hall of Fame continues to have BBWAA members vote because it’s the best available method to get an informed, objective verdict from a large group on a very hotly contested topic. And it takes the Hall off the hook.

So that's what this is about, partially.  Defending the BBWAA.

Quote

Not everyone casts identical ballots. Some change their minds occasionally in what can be an organic undertaking. In reality, voting for three candidates rather than six isn’t all that radical. And for those who believe I did Martinez an injustice, I wouldn’t worry about him getting in after he earned 70.4 percent a year ago. No player has failed to be enshrined after reaching that number heading into his final try.

David Lennon, showing us who he really is.  "I'm gonna vote for this guy until he gets 70.4% of the vote, then NOT see it through to the end and let his fate rest in the hands of others because...hey, why should I vote for him again?" 

David Lennon is that guy who'll lend you 15 bucks when you need 20 even though he could spot you the extra 5.  

Quote

 

If anything, last week’s election of Baines — another DH — should help Martinez. It just didn’t resonate that way with me this time around, and from this point going forward. Others may disagree, but at least it comes from my genuine, thoughtful and untainted examination of an imprecise process.

I don’t think the Hall of Fame can ask for any better than that.

 

If by genuine, thoughtful and untainted examination of an imprecise process, you mean "my decision making after looking around at who others voted for and not supporting guys that I supported in the past because another election committee other than the BBWAA made a questionable decision," yes, I agree.  The Hall of Fame can't ask for anything better than that.

[atomic]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/david-lennon/harold-baines-hall-of-fame-david-lennon-ballot-1.24610024

 

This guys article makes me think they should take vote away from the writers.  You have idiots like him voting and that is why guys who deserve to be in like Mussina, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and Martinez and dont get voted in.

[DrungoHazewood]

13 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/david-lennon/harold-baines-hall-of-fame-david-lennon-ballot-1.24610024

Choosing to drop Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling, all of whom appeared on my ballot last year, was difficult. But in re-thinking my own evaluation process, as borderline candidates who sat atop the gray area — but still resided slightly below Olympus — they no longer fit.

It sounds like his "logic" is that when some newly-cobbled together committee inducts their latest round of players clearly below established standards his response is to raise his standards to help set the Swiss cheese nature of the Hall in concrete.  "Oh yea, you're going to induct a DH who only led the league in a single positive thing in his whole career?  Well look at this, I'm only voting for inner circle guys from now on!  Everyone in between George Kell and Mike Schmidt can go jump off a cliff!"

The Hall is becoming a piece of amateur modern art.  What we have here looks like a 1978 Buick with macaroni and issues of the Wall Street journal glued all over it with ostrich feces, but the learned among us realize that it's a stinging commentary on Western society's indifference to bad stuff that happens somewhere.  It seems like nonsense, but it's deeply meaningful, man.

[tntoriole]

I wonder if the Vatican College of Cardinals has this kind of extended discussion before releasing the white smoke.

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

I wonder if the Vatican College of Cardinals has this kind of extended discussion before releasing the white smoke.

I hear that there are fierce debates over which metric to use to evaluate the candidates, cWAR (Christian WAR) or jWAR (Jesus WAR).

[Palmoripken]

44 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I hear that there are fierce debates over which metric to use to evaluate the candidates, cWAR (Christian WAR) or jWAR (Jesus WAR).

Souls saved, Confessions heard, Latin, all stats used. Papalytics is on the rise though with Francis there.

[NCRaven]

Really need to be careful we don't start a religious WAR.

[weams]

On 12/16/2018 at 7:25 PM, Moose Milligan said:

First of all, the article is titled:  

Why Harold Baines' election to the Hall of Fame makes me re-examine how I vote

So I'm expecting some deep introspection heading into this thing and some strong points about why Harold Baines is making this guy do a 180.

Let's take it from the top:

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Correct.  Not sure if he's writing to baseball fans or people who just don't know the Baseball Hall of Fame from the Natural History Museum.

Oooo, he's wrestling!  Let's continue.

I'm glad to know that the paper is 8 x 11.  It'd be weird if it was legal size.  

I understand this dude's struggle.  And I'm glad to know that he informs us that he mostly picks players that get inducted.  He picks winners.  I'm sure this guy is awesome at the race track.

Stuck in the middle!  What a terrible place to be!  This guy has just identified himself as part of the herd.  Afraid to go against the grain, vote for who he wants and flip the bird to everyone else.  And this is after he's puffed out his chest by saying the guys he's voted for typically get elected.

Yes you are.

So open minded and cool!  Hey, who am I?  Just a guy who's established himself as a 13 year voter who wrestles with himself as to how to vote and then changes direction like a flag in the wind.

Ok.

Ok...

Hey!  I like it when someone points out hypocrisy, that's always fun.  Well played, good sir, well played.

Never wavered on Bonds and Clemens, good for you!  This is the guy who picks winners.  

But apparently in December, 2017 he thought Edgar, Mussina and Schilling were Hall of Famers.  Now all of a sudden they're not.  Even though they all had better careers than the guy he's railing against but not railing against because he's trying to come across as cool.

Sounds like a sorority girl during rush.

Not a statement or a punishment or some grandstanding ploy?  Then what's this article about, why even write it?  

If anyone who's making statements like this guy has in this article and then starts his summary with a sentence like "Believe me," just don't believe him.  No holes in your life that have to be filled by attention over a HoF ballot?  Again, why write the article to inform everyone that you've voted for the HoF 13 times now, wrestle with how to vote and look to others for input?

So that's what this is about, partially.  Defending the BBWAA.

David Lennon, showing us who he really is.  "I'm gonna vote for this guy until he gets 70.4% of the vote, then NOT see it through to the end and let his fate rest in the hands of others because...hey, why should I vote for him again?" 

David Lennon is that guy who'll lend you 15 bucks when you need 20 even though he could spot you the extra 5.  

If by genuine, thoughtful and untainted examination of an imprecise process, you mean "my decision making after looking around at who others voted for and not supporting guys that I supported in the past because another election committee other than the BBWAA made a questionable decision," yes, I agree.  The Hall of Fame can't ask for anything better than that.

Guy should have his ballot revoked. If either of those players had been Yankees would have slobbered over them. 

[weams]

Oh. And make yourself the show. 15 minutes.