Would you offer Austin Hays the Scott Kingery deal?

[LookinUp]

The next phase of baseball contracts is when players who are under contract refuse to report until they get a new contract. I'm guessing the rules make that hard, but players will leverage their rights if/when it turns out some of these deals are woefully underpaying the talent.

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

The next phase of baseball contracts is when players who are under contract refuse to report until they get a new contract. I'm guessing the rules make that hard, but players will leverage their rights if/when it turns out some of these deals are woefully underpaying the talent.

How exactly is not showing up when you are contractually obligated to leveraging your rights?

[LookinUp]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How exactly is not showing up when you are contractually obligated to leveraging your rights?

You can't be telling me that holding out for a new contract is a new concept for you, right? They have a right not to play and not to get paid. Teams can either agree to a new contract, trade them or let them sit out and likely lose service time or whatever contract credit they're getting. MLB players have it pretty sweet with guaranteed deals, so you don't see this like you do in football, but what's to stop them from doing it if they're worth $30 million a year on the open market and only getting paid $10 million?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

You can't be telling me that holding out for a new contract is a new concept for you, right? They have a right not to play and not to get paid. Teams can either agree to a new contract, trade them or let them sit out and likely lose service time or whatever contract credit they're getting. MLB players have it pretty sweet with guaranteed deals, so you don't see this like you do in football, but what's to stop them from doing it if they're worth $30 million a year on the open market and only getting paid $10 million?

They have a right to not fufill their obligations and to get fined by their teams for doing so.

[LookinUp]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

They have a right to not fufill their obligations and to get fined by their teams for doing so.

What's your point? Under payed players have leverage. Are you denying that or not?

[Camden_yardbird]

This is not a new thing either, good teams have been doing it and even the busts (Rusney Castillo, Jose tabata) arent back breaking.  This is just another part of the game that passed the Orioles by over the last decade.

[Camden_yardbird]

I would imagine rather than hold out players will just sign new contracts, tacking on another year or two of control.  What I dont get about the albies deal is how much of his prime it takes for a second baseman who usually break down faster than other players.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

This is not a new thing either, good teams have been doing it and even the busts (Rusney Castillo, Jose tabata) arent back breaking.  This is just another part of the game that passed the Orioles by over the last two decades or more.

Fixed that for you.    The Indians were doing this in the mid-90’s.

[Camden_yardbird]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Fixed that for you.    The Indians were doing this in the mid-90’s.

Well to be fair the Indians also created MITT (proprietary metrics tool) five years before we even heard about advanced sabermetrics.  That organization has been well ahead of everyone on almost every front for a long time.

[Frobby]

On 3/19/2019 at 8:31 AM, Frobby said:

Last year, before the season began and before he had played in the majors, the Phillies signed Scott Kingery to a deal that guaranteed him 6 years, $24 mm, with three club options at $13, $14 and $15 mm.    Kingery at the time was considered a top 35 prospect by BA, BP and MLB.com, and he was coming off a season where he posted a .987 OPS in AA and then .786 after being promoted to AAA.

As a result of his deal, the Phillies did not have to worry about service time, so Kingery spent all of 2018 on the major league roster.    He had a rough rookie season, posting a .605 OPS and being valued at -1.5 rWAR.

My question is, would you offer Hays that same deal and start him in the majors this year?

I note that Kingery is batting .406/.457/.719 so far this season. Philly may get their money’s worth after all!

[Aristotelian]

Just bumping this thread. Kingery is looking better and better for the Phillies. I'm glad we didn't jump the gun on Hays. Who would be our best candidates for a "Kingery deal" now? The general consensus seems to be that no one on our roster now will be part of the rebuild, but some of their clocks could be extended with some club option years

Best candidates would seem to be:

Santander - Age 24, 1.7 WAR, 120 OPS+ since callup, FA in 2024.

Mountcastle - Age 22, .852 OPS at Norfolk, probably most consistent minor league production of our prospects

Means - Age 26, 3.5 WAR in breakout season, FA in 2025

Diaz - Age 22, looks like the most complete player of our mature prospects, seems to be healthy again but still has not been promoted to AAA.

Anyone want to lock these guys up?

[Frobby]

I would not lock any of them up.   

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Just bumping this thread. Kingery is looking better and better for the Phillies. I'm glad we didn't jump the gun on Hays. Who would be our best candidates for a "Kingery deal" now? The general consensus seems to be that no one on our roster now will be part of the rebuild, but some of their clocks could be extended with some club option years

Best candidates would seem to be:

Santander - Age 24, 1.7 WAR, 120 OPS+ since callup, FA in 2024.

Mountcastle - Age 22, .852 OPS at Norfolk, probably most consistent minor league production of our prospects

Means - Age 26, 3.5 WAR in breakout season, FA in 2025

Diaz - Age 22, looks like the most complete player of our mature prospects, seems to be healthy again but still has not been promoted to AAA.

Anyone want to lock these guys up?

I think Diaz might be a hard sell since he had such a sizeable signing bonus.

[wildcard]

52 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Just bumping this thread. Kingery is looking better and better for the Phillies. I'm glad we didn't jump the gun on Hays. Who would be our best candidates for a "Kingery deal" now? The general consensus seems to be that no one on our roster now will be part of the rebuild, but some of their clocks could be extended with some club option years

Best candidates would seem to be:

Santander - Age 24, 1.7 WAR, 120 OPS+ since callup, FA in 2024.

Mountcastle - Age 22, .852 OPS at Norfolk, probably most consistent minor league production of our prospects

Means - Age 26, 3.5 WAR in breakout season, FA in 2025

Diaz - Age 22, looks like the most complete player of our mature prospects, seems to be healthy again but still has not been promoted to AAA.

Anyone want to lock these guys up?

There is no general consensus.

[Frobby]

On 3/19/2019 at 8:31 AM, Frobby said:

Last year, before the season began and before he had played in the majors, the Phillies signed Scott Kingery to a deal that guaranteed him 6 years, $24 mm, with three club options at $13, $14 and $15 mm.    Kingery at the time was considered a top 35 prospect by BA, BP and MLB.com, and he was coming off a season where he posted a .987 OPS in AA and then .786 after being promoted to AAA.

As a result of his deal, the Phillies did not have to worry about service time, so Kingery spent all of 2018 on the major league roster.    He had a rough rookie season, posting a .605 OPS and being valued at -1.5 rWAR.

My question is, would you offer Hays that same deal and start him in the majors this year?

Kingery outrighted by the Phillies yesterday.  He’s got a guaranteed $14.5 mm coming to him in 2022-23.    So there’s the downside to locking a guy down before he’s had any success in the majors.