Not to be whiny, but can we just cut Richie Martin loose already?

[Frobby]

12 minutes ago, weams said:

I did not do a good job. As someone who think the defensive metrics are pure hooey, I am not your best replier.  Maybe someone who thinks they are bee knees needs to. 

They are not pure hooey, and they’re not perfect either.    They’re useful data points that should be weighed, not necessarily treated like the gospel.    Errors can be made assessing individual plays, but over hundreds and thousands of plays some of that stuff should wash out.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

They are not pure hooey, and they’re not perfect either.    They’re useful data points that should be weighed, not necessarily treated like the gospel.    Errors can be made assessing individual plays, but over hundreds and thousands of plays some of that stuff should wash out.

Kinda like pitch framing just with less pure hooey.

[weams]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Kinda like pitch framing just with less pure hooey.

Less. Much Less. 

[interloper]

7 for his last 15 (.466). 

 

[Enjoy Terror]

59 minutes ago, MCO'sFan said:

If this is all true, I can't imagine why anyone would put faith in these metrics. Can anyone explain why they do?

1    J.T. Realmuto    PHI    C    
2    Yasmani Grandal    MIL    C    
3    Danny Jansen    TOR    C    
4    Paul DeJong    STL    SS   
5    Marcus Semien    OAK    SS   
6    Roberto Perez    CLE    C    
7    Harrison Bader    STL    CF  
8    Miguel Rojas    MIA    SS
9    Javier Baez    CHC    SS  
10    Byron Buxton  MIN  OF

According to FanGraphs, these are the top defensive players for the the season right now. Does this look right? Or close?

 

[Frobby]

34 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

1    J.T. Realmuto    PHI    C    
2    Yasmani Grandal    MIL    C    
3    Danny Jansen    TOR    C    
4    Paul DeJong    STL    SS   
5    Marcus Semien    OAK    SS   
6    Roberto Perez    CLE    C    
7    Harrison Bader    STL    CF  
8    Miguel Rojas    MIA    SS
9    Javier Baez    CHC    SS  
10    Byron Buxton  MIN  OF

According to FanGraphs, these are the top defensive players for the the season right now. Does this look right? Or close?

 

Beats me.    Probably the first thing I’d do is look at what the other advanced metrics (Rtot, Rdrs) say.

I believe Fangraphs has included pitch framing in its catcher metrics for the first time this year, so I’d certainly want to examine the catcher rankings quite carefully. 

[LookinUp]

The thing about these catcher rankings is that they often really show an outsized value for pitch framing in particular. On one hand, I think it muddies the waters of every pitch. I think it needs to be adjusted for umpires, the pitcher on the mound (consistency gets calls) and maybe even how the game is being called that particular day. On the other hand, if god came down to earth and told me that catchers actually are far more valuable as defensive players than every other position, I'm not sure I'd be that surprised. So I just don't know what to think.

[DrungoHazewood]

8 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

The thing about these catcher rankings is that they often really show an outsized value for pitch framing in particular. On one hand, I think it muddies the waters of every pitch. I think it needs to be adjusted for umpires, the pitcher on the mound (consistency gets calls) and maybe even how the game is being called that particular day. On the other hand, if god came down to earth and told me that catchers actually are far more valuable as defensive players than every other position, I'm not sure I'd be that surprised. So I just don't know what to think.

I don't believe they have adequately validated and explained things like how Ryan Doumit was a catcher with a .857 OPS but was worth -2.8 wins in 2008 because framing.  His framing, by their metrics, was worth -6 wins in 2/3rds of a season.  They're saying that, at least at the margins, a catcher's framing can be as valuable as Mike Trout's everything.

That kind of statement requires a lot of evidence to take at face value.

[Can_of_corn]

16 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

The thing about these catcher rankings is that they often really show an outsized value for pitch framing in particular. On one hand, I think it muddies the waters of every pitch. I think it needs to be adjusted for umpires, the pitcher on the mound (consistency gets calls) and maybe even how the game is being called that particular day. On the other hand, if god came down to earth and told me that catchers actually are far more valuable as defensive players than every other position, I'm not sure I'd be that surprised. So I just don't know what to think.

And the count, a pitch is more likely to be called a strike on a 3-0 count than an 0-2 count.

[LookinUp]

Yep. Good points C_o_C and Drungo. 

[AceKing]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm sure pretty much everyone wants to get more accurate.  I haven't heard anyone going well, it's good enough, let's stop and have a beer.

I AM SAYING EXACTLY THIS.  Time for a beer.

[bobmc]

56 minutes ago, AceKing said:

I AM SAYING EXACTLY THIS.  Time for a beer.

Well, as long as you reflect upon the above discussion while you savor that pilsner or IPA (how does one savor an IPA btw?).

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

7 for his last 15 (.466). 

 

Billy Ripken hit .291 in 1990 in 456 plate appearances. 

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, bobmc said:

Well, as long as you reflect upon the above discussion while you savor that pilsner or IPA (how does one savor an IPA btw?).

I'm going to be in Germany next week, so can we make it a Schwartzbier, or a Starkbier, or a Weißbier, or a Dunkles?  In a 1-liter Maß?

[bobmc]

3 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Billy Ripken hit .291 in 1990 in 456 plate appearances. 

NSFW