Who is to blame if there is not MLB baseball in 2020?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

There has been a sea change in the middle of a CBA and it ticks the Union off. Like Drungo said the Walkers and Millars of previous eras aren’t being paid anymore. I get their frustration to an extent but work on getting younger players paid because in the near future it’s never going back to the way it was. A ton of stuff needs to be addressed in this next CBA but that should not impact 2020 like it has been doing. Get thru this year and deal with the outrage over that later.   

I also get ticked off when I make a bad deal only to realize it later.

[eddie83]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I also get ticked off when I make a bad deal only to realize it later.

Yeah... do you expect the other side to negotiate/give in when they have no obligation to? 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, eddie83 said:

Yeah... do you expect the other side to negotiate/give in when they have no obligation to? 

It would be nice if they would. 

[DrungoHazewood]

10 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

They won't ever give up on not having a cap.  That'll never change.  They take pride in being the only sport that doesn't have a cap, they puff out their chests at every given opportunity and remind everyone that'll listen that there's no cap.  

Does a point of pride mean more to them than hundreds of $millions?  If the MLBPA had gotten locked in at 46 or 47% of revenues back when that was the number, players would be paid something like $400M a year more than they are today.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Does a point of pride mean more to them than hundreds of $millions?  

Yes.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I get why the players would be pissed about it, but it's a fair, open market...and markets change.

No, it's a very closed and controlled market.  It's a market where teams and players are forced to pretend that 30-year-old declining free agents are worth 10 times what a good 22-year-old prospect is, even if there are only three teams that want the 30-year-old and everyone wants the 22-year-old.

The marketplace would be much better off if the NPB and KBO each had about a $billion to spend on players.  Then we'd start to see what a free market in baseball players really looks like.

[DrungoHazewood]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yes.

What happened to assuming that they're all a bunch of self-entitled jerks whose only concern was more money?

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

No, it's a very closed and controlled market.  It's a market where teams and players are forced to pretend that 30-year-old declining free agents are worth 10 times what a good 22-year-old prospect is, even if there are only three teams that want the 30-year-old and everyone wants the 22-year-old.

The marketplace would be much better off if the NPB and KBO each had about a $billion to spend on players.  Then we'd start to see what a free market in baseball players really looks like.

Correct.  But even so, I don't think the NPB and KBO would still take guys from the MLB.  I can't see a prime Mike Trout leaving because he got more money to play over there.  Being successful in the MLB carries notoriety that you can't get elsewhere, it's hard to put a price on that.  

But it'd be cool if it happened though.

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

What happened to assuming that they're all a bunch of self-entitled jerks whose only concern was more money?

Well, they are.  But I think that they think that no cap=ability to make more money.  No matter what.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Correct.  But even so, I don't think the NPB and KBO would still take guys from the MLB.  I can't see a prime Mike Trout leaving because he got more money to play over there.  Being successful in the MLB carries notoriety that you can't get elsewhere, it's hard to put a price on that.  

But it'd be cool if it happened though.

All I want is multiple leagues about on par with MLB, and I don't really care where they live.  Lots of things that are wrong with the game could be fixed, or at least changed, with suitable application of competition.  

In soccer it's that way, and nobody bats an eye when Ronaldo leaves England to go to Spain, and then leaves Spain to go to Italy.  Teams and leagues can't be complacent because there's competition everywhere.  Anyone can sign anyone, anyone can get relegated, and whole leagues can lose or gain stature in the world.  You have to be on your game all the time, there's no coasting for years and years.  Baseball would be far better off if they were terrified that Mike Trout was going to sign with the Seibu Lions, or that the KBO's brand of baseball is more exciting.

[Moose Milligan]

13 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

All I want is multiple leagues about on par with MLB, and I don't really care where they live.  Lots of things that are wrong with the game could be fixed, or at least changed, with suitable application of competition.  

In soccer it's that way, and nobody bats an eye when Ronaldo leaves England to go to Spain, and then leaves Spain to go to Italy.  Teams and leagues can't be complacent because there's competition everywhere.  Anyone can sign anyone, anyone can get relegated, and whole leagues can lose or gain stature in the world.  You have to be on your game all the time, there's no coasting for years and years.  Baseball would be far better off if they were terrified that Mike Trout was going to sign with the Seibu Lions, or that the KBO's brand of baseball is more exciting.

Well all I want is to go on a date with Adriana Lima.  I would venture to say that I've got a better chance of landing that than Mike Trout suiting up for the Nippon Ham Fighters (best name ever).

I understand your want for baseball to be set up like soccer.  But we sit here and curse baseball daily for being old and stodgy and not changing with the times...and that's exactly what's happening here.  It's an old and stodgy sport with old and stodgy results.  

[HowAboutThat]

 Everyone ignores the fact that there comes a point in time when the cost of an individual player becomes damaging to the entire sport. It doesn’t matter how good you are you’re not worth $30 million a year. That’s just not logical. The sport can’t reasonably sustain that. 

 The money comes from income generated by the sport, but how soon will those sources of income dry up? The advertisers see the contention and the foolishness between owners and players, and then look for other forums. And they’ll say, “OK baseball we’re done with you have a nice day.“

That day is coming damn soon. Manfred’s idiocy is not helping, but greed on both sides of the aisle is almost as bad.

How many other unbelievably lucrative things have become completely obsolete and worthless overnight? Not a few...

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Philip said:

 Everyone ignores the fact that there comes a point in time when the cost of an individual player becomes damaging to the entire sport. It doesn’t matter how good you are you’re not worth $30 million a year. That’s just not logical. The sport can’t reasonably sustain that. 

 The money comes from income generated by the sport, but how soon will those sources of income dry up? The advertisers see the contention and the foolishness between owners and players, and then look for other forums. And they’ll say, “OK baseball we’re done with you have a nice day.“

That day is coming damn soon. Manfred’s idiocy is not helping, but greed on both sides of the aisle is almost as bad.

How many other unbelievably lucrative things have become completely obsolete and worthless overnight? Not a few...

I'm pretty sure the metrics show that Trout is worth what he makes.  Better posters than myself can find the stats for who's overpaid/who's underpaid.  

[atomic]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm pretty sure the metrics show that Trout is worth what he makes.  Better posters than myself can find the stats for who's overpaid/who's underpaid.  

How is he worth $37 million a year as the Angels have won zero playoff games with him on the team. They are a bad team with or without Trout. 

[atomic]

6 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm not sure what you mean.  In any case that can't literally be true.  Not unless there are only 25 good players, and half of the best 25 players in the world don't mind sitting the bench.  The situation we have right now is pretty close to the Yanks having a very good player at every starting position.  Red Sox and Dodgers, too.

Players like to be winners.  You could have the best players all in one team. I am sure you could find the best two catchers playing 81 games each happily if it comes with an annual World Series ring. Same with starters pitching every sixth game.