Does Merv Rettenmund belong in the Orioles Hall of Fame?

[Redskins Rick]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

May as well wait until they decide on a new mascot!   Of course, if they make the playoffs as WFT, they may just want to keep that for a while.

Figures, when I stop following professional football, my former team decides to play better than the rest of their division, go figure.

Skins are in first with losing record, and should be in the playoffs.

Ravens are on the bubble with a strong winning record.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

Good post, and I have no objections.

Amazing how some posters feel there should be standards before putting somebody in the organization Hall of Fame. Its a feel good thing for the fans and a little love back to the player. How wrong is that?

 

With rational and reasonable standards there's no way that Robbie Somerville will get into the O's Hall, and that's just ridiculous, he obviously needs to be in.  The best honors are those with no standards whatsoever, where they basically pick the winners out of hat.

[Redskins Rick]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

With rational and reasonable standards there's no way that Robbie Somerville will get into the O's Hall, and that's just ridiculous, he obviously needs to be in.  The best honors are those with no standards whatsoever, where they basically pick the winners out of hat.

So do we put Felix Pie in?

[DrungoHazewood]

1 minute ago, Redskins Rick said:

So do we put Felix Pie in?

If we're arguing for a Hall with no standards I don't see why not.

[Number5]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If we're arguing for a Hall with no standards I don't see why not.

It  actually bothers you that Elrod Hendicks is in the Orioles HOF?  Sorry, I've got far too much on my plate to worry about things like that.  Nobody is talking about putting Pie or Somerville in the Orioles HOF.  Come on.

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If we're arguing for a Hall with no standards I don't see why not.

So, let’s take a shot at some standards.    What should they be?

For position players, let’s say automatic induction if you rank in the top 20 in any significant cumulative offensive category, including games played and PA.   That would get you the following:

Cal, Brooks, Belanger, Eddie, Boog, Brady, Blair, Jones**, Singleton, Bumbry, Markakis**, BRob, Mora, Dempsey, C. Davis**(!), Dauer, Surhoff, Raffy*, D. Johnson, Triandos (all based on games), Manny** (PA), Frank (R), Grich (R), Aparicio (3B), Devereaux* (3B), Brandt* (3B), Snyder* (3B), Nieman* (3B), Adair*(3B), Hoiles (HR), Gentile (HR), May (HR), Gibbons (HR), Tejada* (RBI), Baylor* (SB), Patterson* (SB), Hairston* (SB), Buford (SB), Matos* (SB), Wiggins*(SB), Villar** (SB), DeShields* (SB).  (I just listed the first category in which the player qualified as the stats read from left to right; many players listed qualified in multiple categories)

Then let’s add anyone who played in 500+ games and finished in the top 20 in BA, OBP, SLG or OPS in that group.   That adds: Baines, Conine*, Rettenmund*, Orsulak*, Lowenstein (all on BA), Milligan*, Dwyer*, Roenicke (OBP), Schoop**, Sheets* (SLG).    

That’s 52 players, 28 of whom are in the OHOF, 5 of whom are still active and thus ineligible, and 19 of whom have not been elected.   On the other hand, the following position players are in despite meeting none of the above criteria: Alomar (under 500 games), Bordick, DeCinces, Hendricks (also coached), Hunter (also coached), Oates (also managed), Woodling (under 500 games).    

11 of the19 who met the criteria I specified and who are not in the OHOF qualified by being in the top 20 in either triples or stolen bases.    I wouldn’t lose sleep over any of them.   Truthfully, I’m not losing sleep over the other 8, either.   
 

[OFFNY]

On 12/21/2020 at 3:14 PM, DrungoHazewood said:

 

I think that Rodrigo Lopez should be in the O's Hall of Fame ...... anybody who willingly signed with the 2002 Orioles should be recognized for service above and beyond the call of duty.

 

o

 

Melvin Mora insisting that a no-trade clause be put into his contract so that he could remain with a team that was in the midst of a streak of 14 consecutive losing seasons has to be one of the most unique ploys in the history of Major League Baseball.

 

No-Trade Clause Seals Mora Deal

(By Childs Walker)

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2006-05-20-0605200465-story.html

o

[OFFNY]

7 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

 

So do we put Felix Pie in ??? )   

 

o

 

Felix Pie Hits for the Cycle ... Say What ???

(By C.J. Holley)

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/baseball-insider/2009/08/pie_hits_for_cycle_say_what.html

 

o

[DrungoHazewood]

15 hours ago, Number5 said:

It  actually bothers you that Elrod Hendicks is in the Orioles HOF?  Sorry, I've got far too much on my plate to worry about things like that.  Nobody is talking about putting Pie or Somerville in the Orioles HOF.  Come on.

Elrod doesn't bother me one bit.  He's in for being a good guy on the team for a long time.  Wild Bill doesn't bother me, just don't look too closely at his personal life.

But here's the quote from Rick:

Amazing how some posters feel there should be standards before putting somebody in the organization Hall of Fame. Its a feel good thing for the fans and a little love back to the player. How wrong is that?

He's basically arguing that anyone can go in the O's Hall.  It's all a feel good thing, why not?  Of course when you put Gene Woodling and Billy Hunter in they feel good, but the other 50 guys who were just as qualified who aren't in might not.

[Ruzious]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:10 PM, Frobby said:

The stats don’t show him as a poor OFer at all.    Honestly, I don’t remember his defense one way or the other.    

If Don Buford was the standard for the bottom of the OHOF, I’d agree Rettenmund falls short.   But when you’ve got Roenicke, Lowenstein and Woodling among your OHOF outfielders, it’s a lot easier to make the case for Rettenmund.   
 

It's what I remember as a kid - not on stats.  Did they even keep defensive stats other than the very basics back then?  I particularly remember commentators in the WS's making a point of saying there was a big problem for the O's when balls were hit to Rettenmund as opposed to Blair.  Granted, Blair was a GGer, so maybe it could have been an unfair analysis. Regardless, it seemed clear to me as a kid that he didn't have a good defensive rep - fwiw.  Take it or leave it.     

[drjohnnyfeva]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Elrod doesn't bother me one bit.  He's in for being a good guy on the team for a long time.  Wild Bill doesn't bother me, just don't look too closely at his personal life.

But here's the quote from Rick:

 

He's basically arguing that anyone can go in the O's Hall.  It's all a feel good thing, why not?  Of course when you put Gene Woodling and Billy Hunter in they feel good, but the other 50 guys who were just as qualified who aren't in might not.

Who makes the election and/or decision on scouts, executives, and non players, I wonder (...not really, as it doesn't bother me.)  But the one thing that would suck is if these types of elections were like the Hollywood Walk of Fame where there are lobby groups that pay huge stipends to the owners/ administrators of the "Walk" who then select but a few each year based on some kind of vote.  I have no clue whether that scenario exists with the individual club Halls, but whatever they're doing, player-wise, at least, it seems pretty accurate.  Yet if there were players who didn't get in who are hurt, as you say, and able to "lobby" some election committee, they can create their own hype in an attempt to get in.

I'd love to see Mark Reynolds and Kevin Millar in, just because they were "fun."  I don't think there's anything objective to be measured there, tho.  And I'd bet there'd be a lot of disagreement on that.   Chris Davis is fighting against his cause...

[Frobby]

58 minutes ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I'd love to see Mark Reynolds and Kevin Millar in, just because they were "fun."  I don't think there's anything objective to be measured there, tho.  And I'd bet there'd be a lot of disagreement on that.   Chris Davis is fighting against his cause...

Personally I’d puke if Millar were in our HOF.    At least Reynolds played on one Orioles’ playoff team, but I don’t see him getting any serious consideration.   

Davis is a fascinating case.    His accomplishments in his good years were pretty epic, and he’s on the team all-time leaderboard in several categories: games (15th), at bats (14th), runs (14th), hits (18th), doubles (18th), homers (6th), RBI (11th) — not to mention easily no. 1 in strikeouts!    But he’s been such a drag on this team for the last four years (and eventually six), that it’s tempting to keep him out.    
 

[Can_of_corn]

Folks would say Reynolds only got in because he is blind.

[Ridgway22]

On 12/21/2020 at 2:10 PM, Frobby said:

The stats don’t show him as a poor OFer at all.    Honestly, I don’t remember his defense one way or the other.       
 

As an off-the-wall reference to defensive prowess, Strat-O-Matic Baseball (for those that aren't familiar) is a card and dice baseball simulation (and now a computer version) that produces realistic results. Its been around since about 1960, and I replayed the Orioles seasons from about 1971-1985, then real life took over. I still blame Strat for an approximate 1.00 reduction in my overall high school and college GPA's.

Strat-O-Matic defensive ratings are 1, 2, 3, or 4, with a ratting of 1 being gold glove / very good, and 4 representing poor. So, Brooks and Belanger were consistently 1's at their respective positions, and when Boog and Trumbo played outfield, they were 4's, etc. (note fielding rating of 5 was added later)

Outfield arms are measured from +5 to -6, with guys like Clemente and Dwight Evans getting the -5's, and Mickey Rivers and Johnny Damon with +2's and +3's.

I went back and checked Merv's defensive ratings for 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, and they were remarkably consistent for each season:

Left Field  2
Right Field 2
Center Field 3

His arm was rated -1 for 1969, 70, 71, and -2 for 1972

So, using this single reference source, he was an above average outfielder capable of playing all three outfield positions, with a slightly above average arm.

[drjohnnyfeva]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

Personally I’d puke if Millar were in our HOF.    At least Reynolds played on one Orioles’ playoff team, but I don’t see him getting any serious consideration.   

Davis is a fascinating case.    His accomplishments in his good years were pretty epic, and he’s on the team all-time leaderboard in several categories: games (15th), at bats (14th), runs (14th), hits (18th), doubles (18th), homers (6th), RBI (11th) — not to mention easily no. 1 in strikeouts!    But he’s been such a drag on this team for the last four years (and eventually six), that it’s tempting to keep him out.    
 

Millar is a Red Sock...  I like him.  He was a goof on the team at a time when we needed a bit of a goof... actually, a pretty competitive goof.  He was good for us.  I like him best on TV, tho.  Reynolds for similar reasons.  I think he was a decent player, but he was a great clubhouse guy.

If Davis continues to play, it would almost be laughable to put him in for as terrible as he has become.  It would almost be like putting a spotlight on the suck.